First off, how slow or how fast a snake grows is not about commerical breeding or hobbyist or any other such thing. Its simply about the inherent growth capability of said snake.



Agree and disagree. True that the inherent capability of the animal is the basis of "potential" grow but how that growth potential is realized is based on support. You frequently infer that nature supports the upper end of inherent capability. I do not believe this is the case



Snakes as well as many other reptile species are a bit confusing because they are precocious. That is, they can and do reach sexual maturity at a much smaller age, then what is considered average size for that species. An example would be, cal kings average 3 1/2 ft. to 4 feet in length. Yet female can and do reproduce at 2ft in length. As they age, they continue to grow until they reach their size potential. So sexually mature adult cal kings range from 2FT to 4FT in length, give or take some inches. This does not have a dang thing to do with commerical breeding.



Again agree and disagree. From a commercial breeding perspective it is not always advised to press females into reproduction when at the low end of the scale. If I have the choice between breeding a 9-month-old female at 24" or waiting till she was 18 months and 30", I'd take the latter UNLESS there was a market incentive to be among the first to bring a new form or morph to market and command the higher introductory price. The potential is natural, how you choose to manage your animals is another thing entirely



The speed as to which they reach sexual maturity is based on enviornmental support. I.E. food support and temperature support. In nature, if their is plenty of prey available, they grow fast and reach maturity quickly. If food is scarce, they grow slow or not at all and may never reach sexual maturity.



Agreed



With all the reptiles I have worked with, varanids, colubrids snakes, boas and pythons, many iguanid lizards, etc. They reach sexual maturity at aprox. at 1/2 they average adult length.



Agreed



Of course in captivity they are depended on us for the care and support. So the times and lengths are based entirely on how we take care of them.



Agreed



Snakes have a genetic reproductive potential and a genetic growth potential. Which means, no matter what we do or nature does, they will not exceed a set genetic length or reproductive effort. Another poor example, no matter how much we feed a getula, a getula is not going to grow to 15 ft. ALso no matter how much we feed a female getula, she is not going to produce 100 eggs in a clutch. Its also true that they have a minimum reproductive size. Under a genetic limit and they will fail.



Agreed



When i was young, baby snakes were released because the husbandry of the time did not support growth(or life for that matter). Most babies died or it took many years to reach adulthood. Rarely were they ever bred in captivity, particularly on a regular basis.



Agreed. I'd also add that I released mine because I thought I was the only person in the world who liked them.



Then something happened to open my eyes. Actually two unrelated events opened my eyes. The first was, I did a lot of collecting when I was young, Like many here. I noticed that we found hatchlings, and young adults, and rarely any inbetweeners. So I went around to the local universities. UCLA, USC, CSF, etc etc. and asked, where are the inbetweeners? all I got was the run around, no one had an answer. (the answer here is, they grew quickly to young adult size)



Disagree. This is a gross oversimplification of population dynamics. In nature juvenile mortality is very high and recruitment into the adult population is quite low. In season you see lots of juveniles because the environment is temporarily flooded with them. Those few that survive to become "inbetweens" are in the minority of the population. You find them, just not in any numbers. The thing is given a static population on average each adult will leave behind approximately one successful offspring behind. More than this and the population is either expanding into new territory or is responding to an environmental change that positively altered usable habitat and or prey species. Less than average survivorship and the population dwindles.



Then I needed a job, so I got one at a nasty petshop, it was a DOcTors pets or something like that. Well we had a baby cal king and I sold it to a lady, this was in 1964 or 65. Well she asked me how to keep it, so I told her to keep in warm and feed it. hahahahahahahahahahahaha I was just a kid.



Well she brought it back about two or three months later and showed it to me. She said, she loved her kingsnake and was so glad about how good it was doing. She opened the box and the dang snake was THREE FEET LONG, when she purchased it a few months earlier, it was about 15 inches or so. I rearly had a heart attack. I could not believe what i was seeing.



I asked her, how the heck did you get it to grow so large and so fast. She said, I did what you said, I kept it warm and fed it. I said, fed it what? She said, mice. I fed it a mouse every day. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I forgot to tell her to only feed it once every two weeks. I asked, how did you keep in warm, she said, I put it next to the heater.



Well, it took me about two decades to figure out what that lady did and be able to reproduce her success on a regular basis. hahahahahahahahahaha and you folks think I think I am smart, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.



Interesting!. Its always great to see the genesis of peoples ideas



So I became famous for raising snakes to adulthood in under two years. I started with all manner of colubrids then on to pythons, etc etc. All manner of snakes and lizards and even torts. My fastest for a king was 9 months from the egg to egg.



Since then, there have been several papers published that mentioned this occurring in nature. An example was Rick Shine, finding 9 month old gravid water pythons.



We also found that with wild montane rattlesnakes in our field study site.



Again this natural account does not completely correlate to what happens in captivity. This is a stretch but its the clear example that comes to mind. Lets look at oak trees in a mature forest. Every year they make tons of acorns, lots of which get eaten by squirrels or rot on the ground. A lucky few sprout into saplings but almost without exception are eaten by deer or wither and die in the shade of the mature trees. It's only when one of the larger trees is toppled and the canopy is opened up that the saplings at ground level have a chance to grow fast and thrive. Even then only one or possibly two will win out in the long run and then only if they can reach the canopy before their older neighbors close the gap. Its the same with snake neonates, only when there is a population gap is an opportunity afforded for several to sprint to fill it. This profound growth potential of young organisms is a simple survival strategy and utilizing it in captivity to the max has everything to do with commercial breeding. To make the point I'm going to quote your post within my response, " On the other hand, if commercial breeders do not attempt to express the upper ends of genetic reproductive and growth potential with their stock, they will be out competed by other breeders who will".



So far, growth and reproduction with commerical snake breeders is achieved with food and temps. On the otherhand, the food we eat is created by hormones, antibotics, and gene splicing. So come on guys get off the commerical breeder kick. If really do not need to rationalize why your snakes do not grow fast or reproduce much. ITs your choice. But please let those that are interested in exploring the top end of their potential, do so. It really doesn't matter if its about money or not. Its about genetics. Cheers



I can say for my part that I'm not on any "kick". I have just tried to point out that there are other strategies to successfully keep and breed snakes besides exploiting the top end of the genetic capabilities of the species. To this end I've pointed out that other measure can also determine success beside who got the most eggs and who got them first. This does not mean that those who wish to exploit the top end of the potential are not free to do so.


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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

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