While that sounds good and great, its all bullshat, Those here that scream like little children when someone takes there favorite toy are a wall and do not want to know or understand anything about the snakes in their boxes. They are happy as they are.

I keep saying, nobody is going to check on you, or fine you or cite you, or take you to court if you don't keep them in groups. You can and do keep them any dang way you want. Thats a givin. If your happy with the way you keep them, then what the FROG are you upset about? Just go on with your bad selves and keep them anyway you want. Your great, the best, noone is as good as you. Dang, you feed them in bags, that is as good as it gets.(not picking on anyone in particular) But that is as good as it gets. Its topshelf and priceless.

But, and I only used one T, have you ever stepped back and observed what you do as a third party. That is, forget what you know and look at what you do? You keep wild animals in a shoebox, sweater box, or some other small cage, and the cages are small because you want more animals then you can house in large cages, so you figure out how to treat an ANIMAL, as if it was trading cards. Remember the third person point of view.

Yes trading cards, You keep them in a drawer and not watch them or see them. But you can open the drawer and show them off to others, then close them up again. All of these are in that rack, all of those in the other rack and ONE junk card in a can next to the rack cause is a common card and eats anything the others don't.

You control all aspects of their lives, from feeding to choosing mates, to when to be active to when to go asleep, and even you determine how fast or how slow they grow. NOTHING IS LEFT to the animal.

You choose mates based on color and pattern and nothing more. You want to produce animals that will improve Your collection. You are so good, you have a complete collection of this or that. How wonderful. Your the best and clean too.

You talk to others and compare your trading cards and get envious of others if they have a new trading card. Remember third party.

You've done this for a long time and well, its all you know, your happy and your good and well, your the best. Or at least amoung the best.

But what about the animal??????????? what about the animal!!!

Lets see, these are wild animals that exsisted since long before man drove a donkey cart, heck even before romans wacked the heads off christians. Also remember humor, and consider context, which is totally lost amoungst you all.

Wild animals that did and do exsist and florish all on their own. They hatch, grow up, somehow pair up and breed, then lay eggs and start it all over again. Dang, they did and do this and have done so for thousands of years. hmmmmmmmmmmm and no paper bags to feed in.(in a bag by yourself) top shelf I tell you. Its gets no better then that.

They somehow have developed methods that allow them to EXSIST and all without you and your paper bags and plastic boxes.

So now we have two sides, one side, you guys that are screaming like someone took your favorite toy, and the snakes, not me or Bluerosy, that already know how to keep themselves. (sidenote, its not about Bluerosy or I, its about the animals)(not about US, so stop with the picking on US, we are the messengers)

So to the point, There are two simple problems in this discussion and they have nothing to do with what side your on.

First,
its you that say, kingsnakes cannot be kept together, as they will consume eachother. That is your rule. On the otherside, there are some keepers that practice the exception to your rule, and do keep kingsnakes in groups and feed them together, etc. This is a simple problem, a rule and those not going by the rules you make.

Whats funny about this is, in all other walks of live, its you the rule makers that need to explain why some others can have their objects work outside of your restrictions. Its yours to explain and its yours because you made the rules. So Kerby, start explaining and do it now. You made the rules. So you get to explain why I kept and keep kings in pairs and groups for over 40 years, and that method was how many of your lines came into exsistance. Again, please explain how I can do that, and Bluerosy can did that and YOU CANNOT????????????

Thats the first problem, the rule, then the exception to the rule. Normally in all other areas of problem solving, that means the rule is WRONG, The exception that breaks the rule.

Second,

It becomes about context, with all animals, their is biology(the life processes, especially of an organism or group) and there is ethology(the scientific and objective study of animal behavior, especially under natural conditions)

In context, what the shoebox method addresses is biology, or better yet, the base biological elements of these snakes.

What Bluerosy and I are talking about is ethology, the expressed behavior of the animals that we choose to keep in our cages.

With that in mind, we can argue all day everyday, but if we are not in context to eachother, then the arguement is fruitless.

You are happy meeting the base biology of your captives, they have a heartbeat and they do basic functions, eat, crap, mate, and lay eggs.

We are adding to that, we did your doing a billion years ago, and then became curious as to what drives the machine that you keep. How does it drive, etc.

Now for the third problem.
This is the selection of evidence and the inclusion or exclusion of that evidence.

Its this area where all progress is lost. Its lost because one side or the other dismisses actions or events that would lead to further understanding.

In this case, the solitary side, dismisses the fact that many keepers have successfully raised kings in groups, pairs and clutches together, and that includes feeding in the same cage. Simply put, the discussion is lost if the solitary side does not and cannot explain that occurance. Until you the solitary folks can explain that, you are indeed dismissing key elements of this or any further discussions. So explain away, Kerby, go for it.

Back to the third party observation, From that point of view, much of your defense is based on a protectionist approach. You want to protect you captives(controlled ones) from all and any possible danger. Of course that is normal, but there becomes a point when its not normal, like the paper bag feeding behavior. From a third party point of view, there is something very wrong with a person putting a wild animal in a paper bag so it can eat and not consume substrate while eating. You see there is something very wrong with that picture. Either theres something wrong with the animal, as the vast majority are feeding as we speak in DIRT, grim, water, etc etc, and yours have to eat in a paper bag. Or theres something wrong with you. Simple problem solving you know.

So please let this be the start, I suggest investigating ethology so that we can have a decent conversation. Investigate words such as bonding and imprinting etc, and do so in the context of our conversation. Also learn that behavior is fluid, that is, its ongoing and changing and contains many meanings for the same behavior.

To start their discussion, if your interested, I can point to evidence that most of you have seen and dismissed that indicates these animals do live in groups, naturally. Cheers and don't pop a blood vessel.

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