Posted by:
DMong
at Sun Jul 1 13:43:24 2012 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by DMong ]
Here are many things regarding Flagyl and Panacur administration. I posted lots of info here regarding it and just about everything you would ever possibly want to know (and then some). If you read ALL of this, then you will be all set for keeping all of the basics in mind and understanding
Flagyl(Metronidazole) is a pretty "forgiving" antibiotic that is designed for treating the stomach/intestinal tract of humans as well as many other types of animals. Panacur (Fenbendazole) is pretty safe too, but is a bit less forgiving if given too much more than is recommended. Panacur is generally given at the rate of 50-100mg/kg, then repeated in 14 days for up to three times until a negative fecal test is observed.
PANACUR:
Panacur is packaged for use in horses. Herpetologists and reptile enthusiasts have been using this product for years with great success. Vets recommend a dose of 50-100 mg/kg once every two weeks for reptiles until a negative fecal is obtained. Usually takes 2-3 doses.
Side effects from Panacur given at recommended dosages or even slightly higher are fairly low and almost unheard of.
Panacur treats: pinworms, hookworms, hepatic worms, roundworms, strongyles, and pentastmoids.
To calculate dosage: Get weight of reptile (in grams). Multiply weight (in grams) by .0005 (for 50mg/kg dosage) or multiply by .001 (for 100 mg/kg dosage). Or you can use our handy chart below. Just get the weight of your reptile in grams, and use the chart to determine the dosage.
100 mg/km (high) dose
Weight (grams) Dose in cc's/ml's
50 0.05
75 0.08
100 0.1
125 0.13
150 0.15
175 0.18
200 0.2
225 0.23
250 0.25
275 0.28
300 0.3
325 0.33
350 0.35
375 0.38
400 0.4
425 0.43
450 0.45
475 0.48
500 0.5
525 0.53
550 0.55
575 0.58
600 0.6
50 mg/kg (low) dose
Weight (grams) Dose in cc's/ml's
50 0.03
75 0.04
100 0.05
125 0.06
150 0.08
175 0.09
200 0.1
225 0.11
250 0.13
275 0.14
300 0.15
325 0.16
350 0.18
375 0.19
400 0.2
425 0.21
450 0.23
475 0.24
500 0.25
525 0.26
550 0.28
575 0.29
600 0.3
Flagyl (Metronidazole)
Flagyl Dosing:
Yes, when one researches the doses for Flagyl (Metronidazole). you will find doses that vary greatly in books and on the internet, and they also depend on what type of reptiles, the species, and what is found to be the problem through fecal exams, etc...
I have reasearched LOTS of different recommended dosages in the past, and it was pretty confusing, but I found that 25 to 50 mg/per kg is the most consistent and widely accepted safe dose for most colubrid snakes, and it has been said that tricolors, Indigos, and some Crotalids shouldn't be dosed over 40-50 mg/kg.
one source states....
Metronidazole (Flagyl). Used on intestinal flagellates and for amoebiasis at a dose of 100-200 mg/kg PO, repeated in 2 weeks. A dose of 40-50 mg/kg PO should be used in colubrid snakes since there have been some problems with the higher doses in some species. There are reports that Flagyl works as an appetite stimulant in reptiles. This drug is also good for anaerobic bacterial infections. A recent pharmacokinetics report recommends a dose of 20 mg/kg PO Q 48 hours in yellow rat snakes (Kolmstetter et al. 2001).
In the book "Understanding Reptile Parasites" by Dr. Klingenberg recommends this dose and cites Dr. Funk in specifically saying:
"Do not exceed 40mg/kg in tricolor snakes, indigos or Uracpam rattlers."
Markels "Kingsnakes and Milksnakes" book cites a dose of 40 mg/lb., and that would equal to 88mg/kg.
it is very effective on....
Entamoeba invadens
Trichomonas
Balantidium
Rhizopoda
Flagellates
Ciliates
Anyway, my reasoning is, out of all the different dosages I have ever researched, the most common dose I consistently come across seems to be 25-50 mg/kg of body weight for snakes. So given that other doses can be substantially higher, I tend to think the slightly higher-end dose of the most commonly accepted dose of 25 -50 mg/kg for colubrids is probably a very safe effective bet.
I have used this very same dose personally a few times over the years, and it worked like absolute MAGIC!. I have posted this to other people in the past many times too, and I have had people email me back later on saying their once very thin CONSTANTLY regurgitating snake that was literally on deaths front door prior to following my recommendations for the dosing and administration technique to the the very letter was absolutely thriving again after some Flagyl administration. When the person contacted me again out of the blue a couple months later, his earlier almost dead snake was now three times the body weight it was a while ago, and was now chowing down huge rat pups like no tomorrow..LOL!
Also, many years ago, I had a subadult 300 gram anery Hondo that I produced from the egg, all of the sudden started regurging seemingly out of nowhere, even when given VERY small meals. It wasn't even holding these down, so I immediately knew right then that it was time to break-out the "big guns" and administer some Flagyl at the rate of about 50 mg/kg. I did this and waited for about 12 or so days, and it held down every meal ever since and ate like an absolute glutton. The snake is now a huge proven breeder several times over now..
I have used it since then on a couple animals I acquired from other people at the rate of 50 mg/kg, and those snakes did fantastic afterwards for me as well.
Fouled water is a very common culprit of this if they should accidentally ingest some before you notice and change it out. Or if the bowl is not changed frequently enough it can get a slime of bacteria going that could be problematic.
If you get Flagyl in 250 mg. pill form, the dose for a 300 gram snake is 1/16th of the pill, so you have to do your best at judging what 1/16th would be, but I really don't think a bit one way or the other is going to have any adverse affects given the fact that it is pretty reptile tollerant if not gone way overboard on. Using a very accurate scale that measures tiny amounts such as a jeweler’s scale would make it very easy and very accurate.
Compiled info from several good sources
Part of the confusion lies in single dosing vs dosing over 7 - 14 days. A single large dose targeted on a known pathogen will not lead to organ failure and death. Smaller doses over a longer period may do a number on kidneys and/or liver. When we are treating anorectic snakes, we seldom do kidney/liver function tests before treatment and thus will not know if primary kidney/liver disfunction is in fact at the heart of the problem. In human medicine, this would be malpractice.
Still not clear whether DMader is discussing a single treatment or treatment repeated every day over 7 to 14 days. Funk and Klingenberg are very reliable practitioners, Markel is a hobbyist. But, hey! I believe in Magic! Bring it! (Even when the anecdotal information addresses treatment of symptoms and not specific pathogens or pathology. If it works, don't knock it.) - PT
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The only microorganisms flagyl affects in the gut are Protozoa and such anaerobes as the Clostridia. The latter include C. botulinum, tetani, schottmuelleri (gas gangrene), and the increasingly deadly difficile. These do not contribute to the health of the gut. And they can flat kill their hosts. There a few dozen more genera of anaerobes, none of which you can't live without in your gut.
Flagyl belongs to a group of drugs known as imidazoles that as a group are somewhat more deadly to commensals than to their hosts. They are not drugs about which anyone with a high regard for the truth would say, "Well, it can't do any harm." Why they work only on anaerobes is interesting: in a reducing environment inside the organism, metronidazole yields hundreds of daughter products such as sulfanilamides that do a job on on the organism. Another compound in this group. fenbendazole, has been found somewhat more effective against Giardia, even though the labeled use is as an antihelminithic drug (Panacur). - PT
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Here is what DVM Doug Mader says about Flagyl -
Thought of as anti-protozoal agent but is also excellent anti-bacterial agent (anaerobes)
Metabolized by the liver, excreted by kidneys
Compromised liver necessitates lowering dose
Excellent penetration of tissues to target anaerobic bacteria
Best used with an antibiotic such as Amikacin to extend its spectrum
Flagyl [in reptiles] is dosed at 50 mg/kg PO SID for 7 to 14 days; Amikacin at 5. mg/kg loading dose, dropped to 2.5 mg/kg every third day
Refs in reptilian literature suggest dosages up to 275 mg/kg
Higher doses have been reported to cause such problems as star gazing, head tilt, locomotion problems; this has not been reported for 50 mg/kg even over a 14 day period. Problems have been reversible over a period of months
Deaths have occurred in Calif and Ariz Mtn King Snakes and Indigo Snakes at doses above 100/mg/kg, and in Uracoan Rattlesnakes at doses of 40 mg/kg with 14 day dosing. "A lower dosage might be prudent."
To summarize, 50 mg/kg is a safe dosage for your snake. Mader et al. suggest a regime of this dose for 7 days minimum. From my experience with birds I am concerned about such long term use in an already compromised snake. Furthermore, Amikacin belongs to a group of drugs, the aminoglycosides, with known toxic effects on birds and reptiles. I would rather combine it with a safer group of drugs, Lincomycin/Clindomycin. I have forgotten the length of treatment your correspondent suggested, but I suggest we try dosing on alternate days for a week at the scaled dosage of 60 mg Flagyl and 5 mg Lincomycin SID. I can load some syringes for you to give the snake PO. After a week, we can consider extending the treatment for another week, either consecutively or with a two week break. - PT
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Flagyl (el Metronidazolo) BeneBac© . Flagyl is selective in gut sterilization. It controls obligate and facultative anaerobes and protozoans in the gut and deep wounds/surgical fields. It does not control the plethora of gram neg/pos bugs in the gut. Frequent small meals of low residue food are the way to go. That would be rat pups before they become furry and/or grown mice with their bodies degloved. That means, leave the fur on the head and present that to the snake, but pull the fur back via a circumsizing incision just caudal to the head. As the snake's digestion improves you can progress to larger unclipped fare. My colleague, Bob, can identify fecal Coccidia, and might see some other stuff like Balantidia. [Balantidium coli is a parasitic species of ciliate protozoan that causes the disease Balantidiasis.[1][2] It is the only member of the ciliate phylum known to be pathogenic to humans.] This organism is not confined to mammals, but is seen in Chelonians. It is treatable with Flagyl. - PT
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing" 
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
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RE: Metro/Panacur info. looong - DMong, Sun Jul 1 13:43:24 2012