I agree that "technique" has something to do with it and that constriction is an amazing thing. I don't even put my 5' kings around my neck area - stopped that jazz when they started getting thick. I know it doesn't take much to put someone out if you get right part of someone's neck, but still it could be over in a minute if just about any 6' plus constrictor "decided" to jump from your hands to your neck - you'd never have time to react even with your hands, at least IMO.



Plus, you just can't "unwrap" a constrictor - ask the guys who've been hit by a freakin' Retic, etc. that hit them so hard and fast they didn't even see it coming and if it hadn't been for another person, they'd be dead in a minute or less...literally. I just had a converstion with Terry Vandeventer, who told of holding a Mussurana, Clelia clelia in his hands and that it was like handcuffs and they would give it to people who would literally freak out because they couldn't get free. And a Mussurana, the Mack Daddy snake eating snake of the Americas can only get to be 8-9' I say "only" in light of the fact that if a snake of that size can disarm - sorry, couldn't resist the pun - a person then what would a 15' Python do to you in what...15 seconds? Even if you had your arms you'd be out before you could use them.



But Keith I've held at least five 7' plus Indigos and I've never seen a king that could kill a Indigo that size...plain and simple, just too much weight, jaw and overall strength. It might manage to get away but heads up I don't see it. I could be totally wrong Keith, but big Indigos like that are very impressive, very large (for NA) snakes.



NOW, having said that and something I didn't mention on the other posts, is that (and again I've talked too some professional snake guys with like 40 years experience all over th Americas about this very thing, and I respect their knowledge) alot depends on the situation and individulal snakes involved.



If a 6' Indigo (which is probably the norm for wild caught, "large" Indigos) came across a 6' Florida King in the wild (which would probably be close to the max. for it in that situation) I wouldn't put my money on either one until I saw the first 10 seconds unfold.



Why? Because what if the king - which are just as fast as Indigos from all I've ever seen when it comes to striking - got a good bite close to the head and then wrapped like a knot around it's own head area and the upper 1/3 of the Indigo? If that were to happen then the Indigo would be in trouble, however strong...like Keith said don't underestimate constriction one, and two, the tireless, very powerful constriction of a big king. In such a situation, or something close to it, and Indigo would have limited use of its powerful jaws and it would have to press down upon itself as well as the king in order to utilize its way of killing. Crushing a snake is one thing, even a larger constrictor, but crushing a specialized snake eater like a king is something altogeher different. I will say that's a king is a very strong, solid, tireless constrictor that used in the right situation would level the playing field, so to speak, between such a powerful snake like a big Indigo.



So...to me it would come down to who can stay strong longer, it seems to me, if a natural encounter of this situation occurred.



In that situation, the kingsnakes "unorthodox" way of constriction may be an advantage...they aren't always very efficient - at least from watching - looking constrictors. Sometimes they have that picture-perfect wrap, or they wrap, squeeze their prey against a surface and/or end up in some wierd ball or string of muscle that their prey just can't escape. Whatever the reason they are serenely powerful constrictors as one book once said!



Again though, a 7-8' Indigo, IMO, would kill and eat a 6-7' king 70% of the time...just the opposite of Keiths percentage. This is just my opinion though! Someone has to be wrong, and it could be me!



As far as coachwhips, I saw at least 100 of them the short (8 months) I lived in SE Florida. They are the most frequnelty seen and roadkilled snake in the area (and I use to do/maintain the roadkill surveys so I know). I've seen ones as long as 8' I know, and caught one (yes, by waiting with my snake hook for it to come out of the gophor tortoise burrow it flew into) that was ca. 6' in length and seen specimens of larger ones, and a large, adult Florida King (floridana, s.l.) would make short work of it. Coachwhips will eat smaller, less powerful constrictors like cornsnakes, but a big king...I don't see it. I rehabed a coachwhip that was over 6' and closer to 7' (it survived a car strike) and there just isn't enough size/weight/power or constriction to deal with a big king. Perhaps a coachwhip could get away from a king but a big, healthy king's not going to get killed by any coachwhip I've seen.



-John

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