Thanks for the insights Bob. I had the impression that creating "new" species would be the result. Much like what was done with the obsoleta group of rat snakes. Like you, I am curious to see how the couple of dozen current ssp's within triangulum falls out once it is all done and said. I have heard that the evidence is now overwhelming that the scarlet king will be elevated to full species status. I have a hard time accepting the latest revisions with Pituophis. I am no scientist but based on physical characteristics I would be more inclined to either give sayi its own species or allign it with melanoleucus. I see it as a different animal than catenifer. I'm probably old fashioned but I still believe Stulls work on Pits to be the one that I find most acceptable. Thanks once again for your thoughts! Phil

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