>>Well I read that and got something a little different.

>>Remember Frank is trying to make us think here, so with that in mind, what Frank asked is this....

>>

>>1) Do we find both typical spelndida types and typical holbrooki types in the area where this snake was found?

>>

>>The answer is no. All the kingsnakes from there look just like that. You have to go further east to find snakes that exhibit "classic" holbrooki phenotypes and further west that exhibit "classic" splendida phenotypes.

>>



Of course, if both ssps, holbrooki and splendida, both occured in the same area, then I would guess they were separate species and if there were some crosses I'd probably call them hybrids



>>So you are still thinking that this is indeed an "intergrade", but is it really if the snakes have a "continuous" range and slowly exhibit different phenotypes over a broad geographic range? Wouldn't you need to be able to find "classic" splendida phenotypes, "classic" holbrooki phenotypes, and intermediate types like this one all in the same locality to qualify as a true "intergrade"?

>>



No, I don't think so.



>>This is actually a very astute question Frank has raised. He's trying to beat us over the head with it but we still don't seem to get it

>>

>>The exact same scenario exists with the triangulum in Texas. The range is continuous throughout the state, with a little hole in Bexar county (durnit). At what point can you "really" with authority say this snake here is an "amuara x annulata" intergade or do the snakes just exhibit a gradual phenotypical variation throughout a continuous range (i.e. they are all the same)?

>>



Milksnakes, I love it. A milksnake subspecies will gradually change phenotypically as it nears the outer boundaries of it's range, because it is under the influence of the changing environment. As two subspecies' ranges approach each other, each ssps will gradually change towards the other as they near the central location bt. their respective ranges. I believe the point is, "Do we call these snakes with mixed characteristics bt. the two good ranges intergrades?" If we don't then which ssps are they?



>>With some species the boundaries are a little more "clear" and some may be able to say with a little more authority that indeed intergration is taking place. With other species, there is a lot more gray area over a much broader range.

>>

>>???



I agree. There are many different examples. But I think it boils down to whether you agree to have subspecies or are against the concept. It wasn't that I didn't understand what Frank was saying, but more like I thought he didn't like the subspecies concept.



I like this example pertaining to the idea you just proposed. In the Great Plains there are two subspecies of Pantherophis guttata (ratsnakes). In the northern part of the Plains there is P. g. emoryi and in the southern part P. g. meallmorum, according to the latest literature. In between the two ssps is a broad intergrade zone around 100 miles wide. In that zone the two typical ssps cannot be found, just mixtures. A lot of workers think the intergrade zone is too large and the change too gradual, so the snake should not be split into two ssps. However, the snakes in s. TX/MX are quite different from the snakes in Nebraska/Kansas. It's a matter of opinion and I for one like the two ssps. Remember these snakes are all one species with a very big range and there's going to be gradual changes.



I think you either want subspecies or you don't. If you want subspecies, then there's got to be intergradation, imo.



Thanks for the reply, which I thought was quite good.



Terry

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