>>>>Of course, if both ssps, holbrooki and splendida, both occured in the same area, then I would guess they were separate species and if there were some crosses I'd probably call them hybrids
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>>I think we're on the same page for the most part. But re: the above is why I brought up triangulum in Texas. In both Val Verde and Terrell counties in Texas you can find both "celaenops" and "annulata" sympatric, yet clearly they are the same species. I'm sure I could cite more examples as well.
>>

There's always a reason for everything. To get a better picture you need to look at a lot of examples.

For instance, in some areas the scarlet king occurs sympatrically with the Eastern milksnake, and they do not intergrade. Are they separate species or is something just keeping them from breeding?

In AZ the desert king gradually takes the form of the Mexican king, nigrita, as it moves south into n. Mex. Is nigrita truly a ssps of L. getula, or is it just a variation of splendida. If you look at the ecology aspect, splendida is a grassland ssps, and as you enter the range of nigrita you start to get some elevation, which could account for tendency towards melanism.

I also think there's little difference bt. splendida and holbrooki. The answer could be that the habitat has little variation, maybe just enough to make some color/pattern variation. Maybe there shouldn't be a separate ssps. in this case or with nigrita?

In the case of L. t. caelenops and annulata, could there be a habitat difference. Maybe annulata is living in lower, more xeric conditions, and caelenops is living in higher, more montane conditions. I suspect they aren't coming together, except in the general sense. They may also have behaviors that keep them apart.

>>While I don't have a problem with "subs" I don't think it's fool proof either (not black and white), especially given the dynamic nature of species over time. Our classification is simply a snapshot of (proposed) relationships right now. Not only am I interested in how they relate to each other today, but I'm fascinated with the origin of species as well.
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>>Forks

Well said, and I agree. I think subs are somewhat arbitrary. There are good cases and poor ones. I'm kinda fascinated with relationships in general, taxonomy, and evolution of species

More later....TC

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