>>To me, an intergrade is the product of a breeding from two forms that are at least slightly divergent from each other (i.e. subspecies).
>>

Joe, no problem with your defintions, but the idea of intergrade is confounding me. I agree that if two subspecies mate with each other the product would be an intergrade. But normally two subs don't get that close to each other because there's an intergrade zone bt. them, an area where a mixture of their genes creates a somewhat intermediate form.

Because I believe there's gene flow from both subs into the intermediate form and mixing of genes, I believe this to be an intergrade.

If you take two subs in captivity and cross them, then I would call this a "cross", not an intergrade because they wouldn't mix the same way in the wild. I know this idea causes concern and confusion for breeders. And then there's the people who breed and don't even know what it is that they're breeding. Yippee!!!

>>However, IF splendida and holbrookii are just natural variants of getula and can not be separated by distinctive traits, then those "intermediate forms are not true "intergrades".
>>
>>This premise is basically the reason for our whole discussion here and below. And again, even if it holds true in this case, it's not "black and white" and may not be applicable in other species groups.
>>
>>Or on the same note. Was Burbrink really justified to sink all those subs of guttata, bring back New world "Elaphe" and recognize three species "emoryi", "slowinskii", and "guttata"?
>>It was very pertinent that you brought the guttata group into the discussion, a group that ranges from the Jalpan Valley in Queratero, NW to Utah and east to (New Jersey?).
>>
>>Forks

I'll answer the rest later when I get some time.

Terry

[ Hide Replies ]

• More on the intergrade kings.... - crimsonking, Mon Sep 19 21:08:57 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - snakesunlimited1, Mon Sep 19 21:19:27 2005
• since opinions are free and worthless, I'll offer one... - Joe Forks, Mon Sep 19 21:38:33 2005
• RE: since opinions are free and worthless, I'll offer one... - crimsonking, Mon Sep 19 23:05:36 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - jlassiter, Mon Sep 19 21:58:02 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - antelope, Fri Sep 23 01:15:51 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - antelope, Fri Sep 23 01:20:27 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - ratsnakehaven, Fri Sep 23 10:45:58 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - antelope, Sat Sep 24 11:28:51 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - chrish, Mon Sep 19 23:08:38 2005
• does the term intergrade have a specific implication? - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 09:36:13 2005
• If I may cut in... - ratsnakehaven, Tue Sep 20 10:44:50 2005
• RE: If I may cut in... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 12:14:31 2005
• oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 12:29:49 2005
• a URL to Burbrinks paper... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 12:38:24 2005
• RE: oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - ratsnakehaven, Tue Sep 20 13:11:03 2005
• RE: oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - ratsnakehaven, Tue Sep 20 14:05:09 2005
• RE: oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 14:35:08 2005
• RE: oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - ratsnakehaven, Tue Sep 20 15:17:59 2005
• Just a quick scan of the paper.... - chrish, Tue Sep 20 22:15:51 2005
• RE: Just a quick scan of the paper.... - ratsnakehaven, Wed Sep 21 06:52:35 2005
• well I re-read this and.... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 13:15:51 2005
• RE: well I re-read this and.... - Dobry, Tue Sep 20 15:50:42 2005
• RE: well I re-read this and.... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 16:36:27 2005
• RE: well I re-read this and.... - Dobry, Tue Sep 20 20:41:44 2005
• RE: does the term intergrade have a specific implication? - chrish, Tue Sep 20 22:00:05 2005
• RE: does the term intergrade have a specific implication? - antelope, Fri Sep 23 01:50:45 2005