>>I need more time to digest that paper, not that I will ever understand that mtDNA work! However, I do see one huge glaring omission. Not a single sampled specimen from Mexico! How could he expect that work speak for the specimens he has included in Mexico when he didn't include them in the samples??
>>
>>Forky

Good point about Mexican specimens. I'm not sure any literature I've read included Mex. specimens. If you include Mexico in the range of the Great Plains rat, the range is huge, certainly enough space for two subs, northern and southern form, even though the intergrade zone is very wide. I gotta believe there's two ssps there.

Of course, the layman can't ever do genetic testing himself, so we rely on the pros. But how strong is their evidence? Heck, they can't even agree amongst themselves, one of the reasons scientific names are changing all the time. And I don't care how much lab testing they've done, if two subspecies are intergrading, then they're part of the same species.

In cases where the population is isolated from other populations, then we have to guess how strong the relationship is with the parent species. If real strong then maybe the isolated pop. isn't even a subspecies, like with the western "intermontana" rats. If it's a distant relationship then maybe the isolated pop. is a distinct species, like the Western and Eastern fox snakes. I can't believe that "intermontana" gets no designation and "gloydi" gets species status. Some workers just don't want any subspecies at all.

TC

[ Hide Replies ]

• More on the intergrade kings.... - crimsonking, Mon Sep 19 21:08:57 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - snakesunlimited1, Mon Sep 19 21:19:27 2005
• since opinions are free and worthless, I'll offer one... - Joe Forks, Mon Sep 19 21:38:33 2005
• RE: since opinions are free and worthless, I'll offer one... - crimsonking, Mon Sep 19 23:05:36 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - jlassiter, Mon Sep 19 21:58:02 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - antelope, Fri Sep 23 01:15:51 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - antelope, Fri Sep 23 01:20:27 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - ratsnakehaven, Fri Sep 23 10:45:58 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - antelope, Sat Sep 24 11:28:51 2005
• RE: More on the intergrade kings.... - chrish, Mon Sep 19 23:08:38 2005
• does the term intergrade have a specific implication? - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 09:36:13 2005
• If I may cut in... - ratsnakehaven, Tue Sep 20 10:44:50 2005
• RE: If I may cut in... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 12:14:31 2005
• oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 12:29:49 2005
• a URL to Burbrinks paper... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 12:38:24 2005
• RE: oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - ratsnakehaven, Tue Sep 20 13:11:03 2005
• RE: oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - ratsnakehaven, Tue Sep 20 14:05:09 2005
• RE: oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 14:35:08 2005
• RE: oh, and I left out intergrade because.... - ratsnakehaven, Tue Sep 20 15:17:59 2005
• Just a quick scan of the paper.... - chrish, Tue Sep 20 22:15:51 2005
• RE: Just a quick scan of the paper.... - ratsnakehaven, Wed Sep 21 06:52:35 2005
• well I re-read this and.... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 13:15:51 2005
• RE: well I re-read this and.... - Dobry, Tue Sep 20 15:50:42 2005
• RE: well I re-read this and.... - Joe Forks, Tue Sep 20 16:36:27 2005
• RE: well I re-read this and.... - Dobry, Tue Sep 20 20:41:44 2005
• RE: does the term intergrade have a specific implication? - chrish, Tue Sep 20 22:00:05 2005
• RE: does the term intergrade have a specific implication? - antelope, Fri Sep 23 01:50:45 2005