I tend to agree with what you're saying here. I just hope I didn't misinterpret what Frank was saying. From his earlier post...

Now to be more accurate, on the other side of the mountains, there are indeed splendida types with Cal king influence(speedwayensis) These animals express not only pattern sharing, but include a direct route of connection. That is, the river basins that allow kingsnakes to dispurse thru our deserts(uninhabitatable habitat)Are in direct contact. Also, 100 years of farming(flood irrigation) has indeed caused artificial recent connections from the northwest of tucson, to the Tucson valley itself. The northwest/calking influence, connects the southern splendida influence, which migrate from the south thru the Santa Cruz river basin.

While that is absolutely in evidence, there are many many outlying disjunct populations that are unique to themselves. I hope you can grasp this concept. I believe its causing many of you confusion when identifying other kingsnake patterns. In other words, they do not have to be intergrades to express different or intermediate patterns. You really need more real evidence, not what it appears by what Osborne or Shore labels them. No offense to those fellas, great fellas they are. They are only examples.

At first I thought he was saying that sw. Tucson was in the Santa Cruz River Valley, but now I'm not sure. Maybe he meant his speciman was from west of the Tucson Mtns, which is not in the limits of Tucson, btw. In the quote above Frank is saying that the snakes in the Santa Cruz River Valley, which runs from Nogales, Mex, up through sw. and west Tucson, have influence from splendida of the south and californiae from the northwest. In other words, these are intergrades in the Tucson Valley. If the speciman Frank used is from west of the Tucson Mtns, I have no idea what's going on over there. They could very well be isolated.

But this is what I think of the snake. After your latest comments, John, I looked at the Frank's snake again. Then I looked at this juvenile (see photo) I found this summer, dor, in Green Valley. I see the differences you're pointing out. The blotching isn't the same, speckling is different a little, light bands are slightly different. I agree that Frank's looks like it has some cal king influence. I also understand what you're saying, that the intergradation could have happened in the past, even if the pop. is isolated now. I think it would take genetic testing, as Frank suggested, to say whether it's an intergrade, or different enough to call a new subspecies or species.

Please note that my original comments only applied to snakes in the Santa Cruz River Valley.

Terry



>>Yes Terry, but I think Nigrita are just melanistic Splendida...The melanism is shown in varying degrees throughout its range.
>>

I think this also, but in the literature, nigrita is currently seen as a valid ssps.

>>Intergration does occur....Whether it happened years ago or is presently occuring is the question. Some things happened well before we were out hunting snakes.
>>
>>Take for example the Appalachicola Kings, the Penninsular intergrade kings, the Outer banks kings and the Edisto Island kings........All intergrades, but some intergraded years ago and became isolated.
>>
>>If Frank says there is no Calking populations anywhere near this one he found....Maybe at one time there was...this would account for the lack of speckling, cleaner bands and larger sizes.....
>>

This sounds quite true, but remember that we need to test each isolated pop. to see how closely related they are. Each one is unique and could possibly be just the closest subs, a new subs, or even a new species. I look to the literature as to what to call each snake.

>>I do some field work myself, but never in Arizona...I do have a wife and 4 kids and stay close to home.......
>>
>>John Lassiter

You're a better man than me, haha. It's all I can do to deal with two grown daughters (love them both).

PS: A photo of the dor juve splendida from G.V. this summer.

TC

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