Frank,



Thanks..that was a cool post. I want to comment on a couple things.



>> First, I and others have seen all sorts of confusing events. That is, many snakes overwinter with ovum or embryos in their bodies. Also, many egg laying snakes deposit their eggs in the fall and those eggs overwinter. A better question is, is this normal for the species or exceptional for the species. In the case of montane rattlesnakes(on our site) it appears very normal. Also it appears subocs normally have their eggs overwinter. In other snakes, it may or may not, be normal but still occurs of an occasional basis. So yes, it occurs, but it may or may not be normal.

>>



That is really amazing. I've heard of snakes that mated at all times of the year, and can have clutches at any time, but that's in the tropics. I didn't know snakes could do that in the subtropics or temperate regions. More stuff to think about



>> A point I was making below, in my retarted effort to help is, there is a basic misunderstanding of how wild snakes work. Most including Phil, bases his thoughts of air temperature. I understand what is what we were taught(shame on those teachers) The problem is, snakes do not give a flying shack ankle about air temps. They focus on mass temps. If one was get out of a tiny box(enclosed paradign) and try to understand mass temps, they would soon realize, there is a huge range of mass temps in any givin area, including the northern parts of reptile ranges. These mass temps must include a basic minimum or exsistance is impossible.

>>



I agree, I've been in a box of sorts. Many of us have, including the scientists. There's a reason for that. Consider, change is difficult, because what we know is based on the previous knowledge of others, plus our meager experiences. Most written knowledge of this subject is from folks living in areas with long winters and very little experience studying snakes in winter. Our paradigm is that snakes are dormant in winter and are active the rest of the year. I believe the conceptual change you would like to see is that snakes are active all year.



I'm not ready to say snakes have two seasons, yet, but I am willing to say they have one season, and work on what they are doing during that one season. If they are below ground for extended periods they could be resting or could be active, but it all adds up to one season. During that season they eat, drink, grow, mate, develop eggs or sperm, and rest sometimes, etc, and they are as active as possible under the conditions of their environment.



Just one note about the far north. In n. MI the temps can get pretty bad in January. One year I went outside when the air temp was (-30*F). But I went into the cedar swamp on the Back Ten, and guess what. The temp in there was well above 0*F. I started cutting wood and had to take my coat off, because I was getting sweaty. I noticed the trees stopped the wind from cooling the air any further than it was. I also noticed that under the couple feet of snow the ground was not frozen, nor the water. Actually both of these things are good insulators. Surface temps were near 32*F. That's when I started thinking about why the massasaugas went into the cedar swamps in winter (my theory on these). The swamps are much warmer and the snakes can stay closer to the surface w/o freezing. They have access to water, and don't have to worry about cold fronts, because there's no wind and water usually doesn't freeze in the cedar swamps. I have never seen this idea in the literature.



I believe temps are different in different places, even on my little twenty acre mini-farm. But I also think n. MI is too cold for those snakes to be mating or eating underground. The days are also very short and the sun hardly ever shines until about mid-Feb. There are hardly any rocks to warm up, so we are different from more southerly areas. Whether there is a place where snakes can find temps in the mid-50*'s, I don't know. Maybe we can work on finding out.



TC



Frank..do you think there's always a place where there's temps around 50-55*F, somewhere in the ground or immediate area?

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