Dang, Frank, it's like being bt. a rock and a hard place. Now I know we're talking about the same thing, we just use a little different language. You don't have to explain what those snakes are doing, I know what they are doing, and now I know what you aren't coming right out with about them. I think I've finally got the whole picture. The big reason we have such a different view of the situation is because in AZ you watch them all year, and in MI I have to wait at least six months to see them again. It's not easy to change how you talk about it.



I know you understand why I use the terms hibernate and hibernaculum, but for the sake of other readers let's explain. Many herpers, writers (the literature), Phil and I, have used the term hibernation all our lives. It's what we call what the snakes are doing because they are overwintering and it's such a long period before we see them again. Hibernaculum simply means the place where they hibernate. Of course, those in the know realize that snakes overwinter wherever they want, not necessarily at a hibernaculum. What's happening at a hibernaculum (for lack of a better term at this time) is that a large group of adult snakes are congregating.



I know other stuff is happening underground with those adult snakes, but where I live it happens over such a long period of time, that one has to assume for most of that time the snakes are just resting and waiting for conditions to get better. If we want to talk AZ or Mexico, then we don't have to wait as long before we see them again. Also, they are closer to the surface presumably, since we can find them on the surface occasionally in winter, and there's also windows into their winter retreats sometimes. They are doing the same things, but they are doing them in a little different ways, and the conditions vary (as we've said previously).



I can see where the term hibernation is politically incorrect and the times are changing, but I think it might be awhile before the vast majority of herpers change their thinking and we come up with new terms that more accurately describe what's going on down below. I think talking about it, doing research with data, etc, will help get us there. Meanwhile, let's keep posting stuff that gives some picture of what we're seeing and thinking about. Thanks.



Here's a picture of surface rocks, limestone, near the north shore of Lake Michigan in the Upper Peninsula...



Another view of similar rocks....



The reason these rocks are important is because many snakes use them and overwinter under them. In areas where lots of rocks or piles of them are common, there's fewer trees, more sun exposure, and the rocks can warm up to some extent and are useful for certain snakes. Snakes sometimes congregate there because it's a good spot to do that. Here's one of many green snakes we've uncovered in these rocks....



I'm not saying this is a hibernaculum or anything else, just saying that it's a place where it's easier to find snakes. Unfortunately, we don't find any kingsnakes in the U.P., it's too far north for them, but there are a few other snakes besides green snakes in this area. We can find w. fox snakes, whereas they are more difficult to find in other areas...maybe not as populated.



It takes awhile to say it my way. Thanks for listening



TC

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