Frank, I suggest you reread my post. I specifically said it was anecdotal information. The poster also stated he wouldn't mind some citations. Part of my point was that there isn't much data in the literature. Didn't you read that? Anyway, my post was not intended to take anything away from Phil or you or anyone else. Lots of times I think it is all the different views which helps discuss a topic in depth. Do you think the poster only wants scientific data and to not hear from anyone else?



You said, >> For Terry, I have to wonder about some earilier conversations. I suggested dens or hibernics were not about survival but more attuned to a reproductive behavior(hence not hibernation). Of course you flat fought that concept, tooth and claw. But now you expressed evidence of what I was talking about. With your massa's, you said, the adults(loyal to), moved to dens or hiber's or simply put, winter sites. Yet you found subadults still in the fields. Yes, you said this. I suggest you think about which individuals move to winter sites, dens/hiber's, I suggest, its the part of the colony that is planning on reproduction. So its not a hiber or dormant state, but a state and site to enhance reproduction. The other individuals stay in their foraging ranges and find different areas to winter. These individuals do indeed hibernate/brumate, by difinition. As they are staying dormant until suitable conditions arrive, for continued feeding and growing. Just something for you to think about. You mentioned you found a single individual under some buried logs in winter. You used that to verify your opinions on hibernation. I agree that individual was hibernating. But what about those that gathered in groups. Why did they go to a particular place and what are they doing there? Cheers FR



Whoops! I used the dreaded "hibernation" term. I'm very guilty of that when talking about herps in MI, but I meant to try to avoid that. It isn't that I don't remember our discussions, but the question had to do with movement of the juveniles of snakes, or others. I was just concentrating on the movement, not why they were moving or not moving. I'm not arguing with you about what the adult massasaugas are doing in the swamps in winter. I don't know what they are doing except they are underground and pretty cold. I'm not even sure where the juves and subadults are in winter. All I'm saying is that I've seen them in certain places and not others and it may suggest something or other. I plan on looking for massasaugas next spring in our swamps. Maybe I can learn something about their breeding behavior and/or movements. Right now let's think about the movements we're seeing with different snakes



TC

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