I didn't see them first hand just in a couple photos. I thought the female was straight ruthveni and the male straight L.t.arcifera but had no way to know for sure. I have an 18 month old male that is as clean as any ruthveni and no black tipping or cross-overs. He come from a pair I can trace the change of hands to Applegate that are at least 20yr old animals. See photo.