jack, i have dealt w/ both of those guys thru the years but no longer have any contact info. i bought a pair of oklahoma bulls from shawn back in '07 & here's an example of what their offspring looks like. real nice contrasts! btw, i still have 2.2 babies from the same parents hatched last july w/ more on the way. they eat f/t adult mice & are very well behaved bulls. email me if you're interested in them & i'll hook you up.