Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thought this place needs some livening up.

Pretty cool for a plain ol' king!
Todd Hughes

Todd, those are beautiful cal kings!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks, they will go in '08! I really like the abberants, chocolates and really good stripers or perfect spotteds. Can't let this addiction get a hold of me, I can handle it, honest!
Todd Hughes

Honestly..no you can't! The addiction is stronger than it is anticipated. Mine is with northern pines...I have 8 already. There is no treatment or cure.

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Genesis 1:1

LOL, I am up to 54 kings, gophers, bulls, and rats with a few odds n ends thrown in! I got the fever, National Geographic channel 8:00 central has the cure!
Todd Hughes

That's awesome.
I actually like the head more than the boby, but the body is pretty kick ass too.

Who bred it?
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Remeber I said i wanted to liven things up.

Its really a cross between a pueblin x Cal king. This one pictured is 1/4 pueblin and 3/4 cal king. His clutchmates did not look like cal kings at all. Just shows how any hybrid can throw things in either end of the spectrum and how these traits can be unintentionally bred into something more pure....or worse get intentionally bred into something else and then sold as the newest coolest kingsnake trait.

I think its important for purists and anyone interested in breeding to be aware and educate themselves with hybrids. This way they can spot certain individuals who are misrepresenting animals. Hybrids aren't going away just because you choose not to like hybrids. And the people who intentionally misrepresent them are not either.

Rainer. I very much agree with you said, but how would the untrained (or possibly well trained) eye spot the fact that this animal is a hybrid???

To me it looks very much like a high white Cal king.... The black tipping on the scales is alittle unusual and maybe something about the head...
If you did buy what the seller / breeder was saying, what would you look for??

Great topic!!!

byron.d

The head is different than anything I've seen - but there are lots of different head patterns in Cal Kings.

As far as black tipping of the scales - my wild caught cal kings have scales that are tipped in the cream bands - not black, but then their base color isn't black. So it does happen in wild type cal kings, at least in northern california.
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3.3 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

come,on rainer lets see the rest of that clutch and the parents as well! and how is it 1/4 pueblin and 3/4 cali? was one of the parents an f1 puebXcal that was then bred to pure cal? and what about continuing that line of breeding would/will the calking eventually push all of the pueb out?,intersting stuff for sure,but ftr i could tell it wasnt an ordinary calking,,,,,thomas

You could never ever push all the campbelli out.Once a hybrid always a hybrid.
Rainer is correct that they aren't going away and neither are the people working with them.
You just have to use your eye and best judgment in purchasing anything anymore.
I once remember (I think it was Rainer) posting a jurrasic amel milk/king that looked like a screaming tangerine honduran.

Shannon

oh so i see your one of the pee&beer guys, well i disagree and do beleive it could be pushed out...eventually,, they are after all both lampro's,,,,thomas

Even if you believe it can be pushed out. What are you going to push it out with if the so called pure parent species no longer exists in captivity. This is a real threat with Indigos, Mexican herps, no longer imported herps, etc. Not saying people don't have the right to hybridize just don't take it for granted. IMO anyone who hybridizes should also support those who don't and those who don't should support responsible hybridization as well.

.

You could never ever push all the campbelli out.Once a hybrid always a hybrid.
Rainer is correct that they aren't going away and neither are the people working with them.
You just have to use your eye and best judgment in purchasing anything anymore.
I once remember (I think it was Rainer) posting a jurrasic amel milk/king that looked like a screaming tangerine honduran.

Shannon"

But you can push it all the way out.

The only person who would know it is breeder, or if he tells the buyer. Otherwise there is no way to prove it by looks and/or DNA. The only thing you can do is get your calculater and mathematize the 3% it has in it after back breeding. Otherwise for all intentional purposes IT BECOMES what you want it to by breeding. Thats the way it is officially in farm animals. We can learn a lot from that area.

But getting back to the cambelli being bred out of a cal king in nature. We can address the livestock thing on a seperate thread.

What do you think most of the snakes we have in the wild came from?? Do you think they are pure to the 3rd-4th-5th degree of generations. NO. What you have is the area a snake is in being bred back into another dominant species in the area and then the other one being a b s o r b e d.

Bottom line is this debate can keep going on forwever. I think it boils down to people and their beliefs. If one thinks that hondurans don't hybridize in the wild or cal kings or cornsnakes or...

BUT, then there is the question of certain alleles being matched up by snakes from one side of this continent to the other. SInce herpetoculture has started hybridizing we have discovered that not only some, but most reccessive traits are allelic with other species. Does anyone have the mathematical possibilities of that?? I have heard it before but cannot remeber the exact number. But it was some insanely unlikly number that it is impossible....Unless the snakes are related in the past the odds are better in play the lotto to win a match in an albino snake from calif being allelic with one from the east coast or mid west.

So with the odds of any matching alleles being a near imossibility it is LOGICAL to assume all thise snakes are related long enough to retain the same reccessive traits over generations.

WHICH BRING ME TO MY POINT SHANNON.. Its no different than what nature has done AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO.

I think we can all argue in circles about wether or not you can breed the hybrid out of a snake. The purists will tell you no, there will always be some small amount of foreign DNA and they are right. And the rest will say how would you ever know, you probobly have some hybrids in your "pure" collection right now! After all only a sharp eye would have caught something unusual about that "normal" cal king and it 25% cambelli!!

WHATEVER! everyone knows the facts about this situation and its just personal preference whether any hybridization bothers you or not. We should all just try to be as honest as possible and that the most anyone can ask for.

I just wanted to coment on the traits being allelic across similar species...

Since melanin (just using albino as an example) is the same protein with the same molecular structure in all reptiles that I know of, this means that it has the same DNA sequence in all species. This means that an extremely early ancestor of modern reptiles developed this pigment and through speciation it has spead across many organisms.

It used to be that the definition of a species was animals that were capable of interbreeding with each other. Now we know that this is not true and our definition of what makes up a species has had to become somewhat more flexible. Since all colubrids are very closely related species and all lampropeltis are even closer, it makes perfect sense that mutated traits in highly conserved DNA sequences would be allelic across species. IE moving a functional gene to a different spot on a chromosome is not something that happens easily so the same genes will reside on the different species in the same place on the same chromosomes etc.

In fact it would not surprise me if certain specific traits were allelic across drastically differnt species. It may not be possible to breed an albino boa with an albino kinsnake to find out for other obvious reasons but I bet that the location and structure of the melanin genes are similar across most snake species.

cheers

Nature will often transport a snake over a long distance and deposit it into a new region. This happens when logs are flooded and floated down river for many miles, snakes ride hurricane debris from the Gulf to south Florida or the Keys and back, etc. That is how some of these different locals came to be over countless years. If the new guy in the hood bred the locals, it quickly disappeared into the genetics of the dominant form. That’s all natural. That may be why these snakes are all compatible with each other. It was supposed early on that these “hybrids” would be sterile, but we have learned that is not true. Probably because all these snakes are more closely and maybe literally “related” than previously assumed. If someone crossed a high contrast desert cal with a wide band high contrast Eastern and refined a five foot high contrast "Desert Eastern", I might like that better than either of the two original parents. Maybe a clutch of Easterns hitched a ride on a westward wagon train or box car of lumber and started the whole desert phase anyhow. Talk about going in circles! Who knows?

I like that theory, wagons ho! I can see the flood and hurricane scenario born out.
Todd Hughes

hahahaha i used cattle farmers as an example last week(diff.subject), ahhwell great post rainer i beleive the hybrid haters are just prejudiceand small, i never understood the pee&beer scenario if breedin a snake and a turtle sure it would apply but snake to snake would be more like beer and beer,now maybe lonestar mixed with schmidt isnt everyones favorite taste of beer but its still beer none the less wow im thirsty all of a sudden!,,,,,,,thomas

A high percentage of all the snakes on this forum are no longer representitive of what occurs in nature, therefore are mutates or mutts or whatever sad name you want to call them.

Its oh so simple. If you look at it and it does not look like one from nature, then its a cross, morph, MM(manmade)intergrade, non natural.

whether its a getulus cross, or a lampro cross, really does not make a difference.

For instance, many flas and calkings, are no longer local types. They have been bred AWAY from what occurs, even if their ancestors once occurred naturally. Cheers

thats often overlooked even with locale breeders,,,,,,,thomas

Your correct Rainer.Its what one person believes.I believe that even if you spent 20 years back breeding and 7 or 8 generations it still wouldn't push one or the other out.Yes,its very true that only the breeder would know but its still not full cal king etc..
I have seen the "albino alterna's" at shows that read 88 or 91% alterna.Still doesn't make it a alterna in my book,

Look,I don't care if people choice to built mutts thats there choice.My choice is to stay clear of them but I do enjoy looking at them from time to time.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter.

Good Day,
Shannon

"Posted by: shannon brown at Fri Dec 1 15:37:05 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Your correct Rainer.Its what one person believes.I believe that even if you spent 20 years back breeding and 7 or 8 generations it still wouldn't push one or the other out.Yes,its very true that only the breeder would know but its still not full cal king etc..
I have seen the "albino alterna's" at shows that read 88 or 91% alterna.Still doesn't make it a alterna in my book,"

But it only take 3 back breedings to create a new species which DNA would not detect. In farming this is also considered a legal species. So it does not take 20 years and 8 backbreeding like you think.

I wish someone would chime in with expereince with chickens or something. We have a lot to learn in herpetocuture from farmers who are farming livestock. This information is common knowledge.

I love it when you come in and start the hybrid debate again. I'm with you on this. Great snake, by the way.