Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The following is my sole opinion on keeping venomoid reptiles. This is meant to be a civilised discussion, so please, be able to state you opinion without being hostel.

I am not against the operation itself. I belive that if it is done right, it is not wrong. It only actually hurts the snake a few weeks after the operation, and that is without painkillers. It is still completely able to live a normal life in captivity. Peoples' main arguement is that the operation is done to suit human "ego" to keep a venomous reptile. But then one could say, if you want a "natural" or "real" snake, you never ould have obtained it in the first place.

Cheers,
Joe

there have been many heated debates about this topic and, unfortunately, most of the arguments come from folks who get a tad irrational on the subject. You are right, if done correctly, under veterinary anethesia and veterinary procedures, the amount of pain the snakes experience is probably fairly minimal (and yet, how do we really gauge the level of pain these animals undergo?....is it based on feeding response, appearance, behavior?...). Many are long lived and it appears that not having working ducts and/or glands does not pose any problems in terms of digestion of prey or overall health but once again, do we really know? The real argument is one based on philosophical differences. Many will say "if you have to remove the ducts/glands, then you shouldn't own a venomous snake". I can live with that, however, those same people are the very same people who keep venomous snakes w/out the proper antivenin (or access to it), improper safety procedures and less than adequate caging. Now, those folks are a bit hypocritical about the argument that they are trying to defend. Other problems include: having a pair of venomoids and breeding them together thus producing fully hot offspring, assuming that a venomoid is 100% safe....regeneration has been known to t ake place although if done correctly, is minimized, keepers becoming complacent because they know that even though its a "venomous" species of snake, it is no longer "venomous" and their handling skills basically suck. There are countless of other arguments. I think that venomoids should be treated no different than venomous herps; in fact, folks not adept at keeping venomous have no business keeping venomoids. No minor should own a venomous species; venomoid or hot. We do, on occasion, take in "voids" from confiscations and such. Many of these have been very long lived snakes but the folks keeping them were barely qualified to keep a corn snake. Once again, the primary argument boils down to a philosophical debate and this is a tough subject to debate with a sense of calm and respect for each other's side. So which side am I taking? Currently, all of the snakes in our collection (Wildlife Discovery Center) are fully armed and loaded with the exception of a couple of venomoids that came to us via confiscations or abandoned pets. I do know of some top knotch exhibits who feature all venomoids but you would never know it by looking at the animals (human grade implants, excellent body weight, normal behavioral pattersn, etc.) and, ironically, some of the worst exhibits I have seen were fully hot specimens kept by facilities whose staff did not feel comfortable working with them on a regular basis (dirty cages, less than healthy looking animals, stuck eye caps, etc.). So, the argument will continue to go on and on and my position is stated somewhere in the "gray areas"

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>The following is my sole opinion on keeping venomoid reptiles. This is meant to be a civilised discussion, so please, be able to state you opinion without being hostel.
>>
>> I am not against the operation itself. I belive that if it is done right, it is not wrong. It only actually hurts the snake a few weeks after the operation, and that is without painkillers. It is still completely able to live a normal life in captivity. Peoples' main arguement is that the operation is done to suit human "ego" to keep a venomous reptile. But then one could say, if you want a "natural" or "real" snake, you never ould have obtained it in the first place.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Joe
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Here is my thought. I hope I can still come into work tomorrow : )

My main stance is...what's the point in altering the animal with invasive surgery? It "might" lower the chances of envenomation if bitten, but dead is dead. So being bitten is a bit close. Maybe when a zoo can figure out how to make an elephant not weigh so much and not be dangerous...I might start re-thinking a little more about this. And I am absolutely certain I will be forced to think about it more in the future. I wasn't all for having my dogs sex organs removed to prevent cancer in those organs...but the dog sits with me now...minus the weight of a uterus and ovaries.

I guess you could call me leaning on the philosophical side a little.

Here was a response I had for some kids who asked me about it.

I have to say there is no "safe" snake in these cases. The surgery does not exist. Even surgeries as medically advanced and controlled as heart surgeries have complications. And this happens with the best doctors and technology we have on the planet. Not everything can be completely controlled when we are dealing with complex matters of biology.

So from here we have to look at the surgery we are talking about with venomoids. There is very little in the way of scientific information that has been studied on this. This leaves a lot of room for things we do not expect and mistakes to happen...Especially when compared to what we know and the work that has been done by heart surgeons.

So we have to understand that whenever working with these animals we are dealing with a threat to our life. You cannot cut any fewer corners and you cannot do anything different or you will end up being someone who was shot by a gun that wasn't loaded.

Maybe there is a very good chance the surgery went well and you will be alright. But it doesn't matter because dead is still dead.

With the complications of surgery I already mentioned, we really do not know of how able one is to not have venom. Again, this is not something that has been studied well enough. It would certainly benefit scientists to know exactly what roles venom plays in the life of a snake. But nobody has been willing to go through the amount of work it would take to find out. It is not worth it. A surgery would have to be developed which is accepted by a majority of scientists which is found as a "reasonable" means of determining the snake is not producing venom any more. And remember, this is still not 100%. It would only be the best thing most scientists can find. We have already covered that this has not happened yet and I do not think it ever will.

It will not because there is not enough motive there, because even once a surgery was developed...it would take removing the venom glands of hundreds (at least) of snakes and examining the results over the entire life of each snake in order to see a decent result. And there would still be margins of error you cannot control for. This even goes beyond your margin of error each surgery already has. This would be just to get a good idea of what the effects were on ONE species. It would take years. And it could be studied forever and you would still find out new things and you might even find out most of the past work was completely wrong.

This is how science is. Think of all the medical advances we have made in the last 100 years and think of what new things we are still finding out.

We take risks in medical science to try and save lives.

A venomoid surgery is a risk to both the snake and the human involved. So this brings us back to why we cannot take the risk error. We already know error exists with the surgery; we cannot then take any more risks than we would have taken if we "knew" the snake was still venomous.

Because once again...dead is dead and all risks and errors are over from that point on.

I definately agree with handling venomoid snakes as though they are indeed fully venomous. I believe that the person needs to have a strong background in raising many snakes to take on potentially venomous ones.

They should be discussed in the VENOMOID forum. Not here. That's the reason why the sub-forum was created. If you don't want to see any flaming posts, this isn't the place to bring up the topic. I do, however, appreciate the level headed responses that were given. Hopefully the mods will move this to the appropriate forum before it gets out of hand. Everyone knows how I feel about them, and the topic was played out on the venomous forum years ago.

I BASICALY WANT TO TAKE SIDES WITH WHOEVER IS LOOZING IN THE ARGUMENTITIVE SENSE. I WAS UP LATE AND BOARD. DON'T HAVE ANY VIPERS BUT MABY WE COULD ALTER MY BEADED LIZARDS. WOULD BE KINDA NICE TO JUST LOOSE MASSIVE HUNKS OF FLESH WITHOUT THE PAIN RUSH. NOW IS THE TIME SOMEONE NEEDS TO JUMP IN AND BASH ME I'M INTO IT. HECK I'M NEW ON THIS FORUM GOOD PERSON FOR A DOGPILE, HUH. JUST WANTED TO INTRODUCE MYSELF PROPER. HECK, WHAT GOOD IS A FORUM IF YOU CAN'T VENT. THIS THREAD MIGHT SAVE ME A VISIT OR TWO AT THE SHRINK.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I looked up and a magnificent thing passed by and I wondered if and when the universe imploded if I mattered.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."