Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can they coexist with one another or until what age do they need to be separated before they bite each others' tails off?

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So, I made a new environment with super dry coconut fibers for my two alligator lizards. I dried the coconut fibers for days now. One of them has been buried since last week. I was going to wait until they eat all of the crickets and wait until the one that is buried to surface so I can move them to the new environment. I usually would drop in 10-12 crickets in at a time and the next day, they are all gone. The last batch only half of them are gone.

Today, the aquarium has too much shed skin so I decide to move one to the new environment. So, I was looking from the bottom of the aquarium for the other one to see where she buried herself. I saw her in the middle of bunch of white eggs.

This is the one that I caught in front of my mom’s house in April. So you are right Funky that she is gravid. Does this mean that the eggs are good? I moved all the live crickets to the new aquarium already.

So, how long does it takes and what preparation should I do. I don’t want to disturb them because I think it is important to let her guard her eggs like you said. The eggs are buried 2 inches deep so will they be safe from the impact of the soil? I am going on vacation for 4 days next week. I am concern that they might hatch when I am away and the babies might not have food.
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So, a while back, I posted a thread to determine the two alligator lizards that I have. I found one last year and the other one this April. The one I found this April laid eggs sometime last week I guess.

I am trying to wonder did she get gravid already when I found her or did she go gravid through copulation with the other one which means the other one is a male.

I don't think I will ever know right? The other one does look more like a male and I posted before it likes to lay on top of the one that just laid the eggs.
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I suspect she was gravid when you found her.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

So, you don't think the other one is a male?
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No - it looks female to me.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I do think it is a male after I thought about something you said.

The one on the left laid the eggs so no doubt she is a female.

I have the one on the right for almost a year now. It has not laid one single clutch of eggs. You said before that females can get gravid and lay infertile eggs. So, if it is a female, by now, there should have some type of yellow eggs then right? Are infertile eggs yellow?

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/c407027m/Alligator Lizard/DSCN2293.jpg

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They don't necessarily lay every year, especially if you did not brumate her (when they wake up from winter, it stimulates ovulation).
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Is brumate the same as hibernation? Can you give me more details?

Thank You
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Yes.

Around thanksgiving, I stopped feeding.
About a week later I cracked open the window on my herp room and kept the door shut with the heater vent closed, so that the inside temperature of the room was cool. During december and january the room temp dropped into low 50s at night. High 50s / low 60s during day.

Spring came - I closed the window, kept the door to room open, turned heat back on for my snakes (alligator lizard doesn't get additional heat) and started feeding everyone again. That triggered breeding response in everybody. Well, almost everybody - one of my adult female kings did not ovulate and did not breed this year.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Let me get this correctly.

Basically, you starve and make them cold (not below 50) from November to March? Do you leave the heat lamp on during this time?Will they lose lots of weight and get weak if they don't eat for that long of a time?

Around March, you feed and make them warm again until next November?
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They do lose some weight but not a lot.
They go inactive during this period - they make a burrow in their substrate and stay their.

Without warmth, they can not digest food - it would rot in their belly but they probably wouldn't eat it anyway.

In the wild sometimes they look really emaciated when they first come out - my female looked a lot healthier than the wild ones did.

I woke my reptiles in late Feb because that's when the wild reptiles started to emerge up here, including alligator lizards. Interestingly - some locations had tons of fence lizards out in late feb while other locations within a mile had none for a few weeks. It's neat to find fence lizards when they just emerge because they are often caked in mud.

But basically yes - you cool them for a few months w/o food. Always make sure they have fresh water available because they don't actually hibernate, they brumate - reduced activity but still respond to stimuli and still occasionally will want to drink.

But the reduced temperature slows the metabolism way down, and they don't really starve - they lose some weight, but they are fine. Within a few weeks of food they are back to normal weight again - even the severely emaciated looking ones in the wild.

This is the first one I found in the wild this year:

http://www.naherp.com/viewrecord.php?r_id=1704

Feb 17 - that's when I started to wake my herps up.

You can see she is emaciated (though not that badly actually).
Mine looked better than that when she awoke.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

When I found my first one, it was half that size. I mistaken it for a twig. When I saw it moved, I finally realize it is a lizard. It was moving super slow.

Thanks for explaining the difference between hibernation and brumation.

I have learned so much from you Funky regarding these Alligator Lizards. I know I asked lots of questions but that is because I am pretty adamant about them.

I posted some other questions within this thread. If you get a chance, can you answer them too?

Thank You Funky!
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If the eggs are white they are fertile. They may have some brownish staining from the coconut fiber, don't worry about that.

The eggs will probably take anywhere from 45 to 60 days to hatch. Last year my clutch started hatching on day 45 and finished on 47 but I incubated them with additional heat bringing them to low 80s. At room temp they probably would have taken longer.

Unless you have a way to keep the eggs moist but not too wet, I would move the mother and put the eggs into a controlled setup like what I'm using. She will mope for a few days but they are more likely to hatch if you don't have a setup that allows the substrate to be kept at proper humidity.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Honestly, I don't want to move the eggs because they are buried deep down. I don't want to accidentally hit one. They are white from looking at them and she buries herself with them. Would she do that if they are not a good batch of eggs?
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So, would she bury herself with a bad batch of eggs? These are white but only half the sides are showing.

Also, how much is she breathing because she is 2 inches under?
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If the eggs are white they are probably good.
infertile eggs are yellow.

Wether the eggs remain good or not depends primarily on conditions - IE that they are neither drowned nor too dry.

I do not know the behaviour of a mother with infertile eggs.

She can breath just fine.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

They are buried underneath this. Do you think it is too moist?

I will try to take a picture from the bottom-up of the aquarium today because you can see the eggs at the bottom.

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Doesn't look too moist to me.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

How fragile are the eggs?
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Ok, so I removed the other one and left it in a separate aquarium. Both aquariums sit side by side. It wants to get back in. I left the one that laid the eggs alone with her eggs.

I used a vacuum cleaner to GENTLY suck all of the debris (skin and waste materials) out on the top surface of the coconut fiber. It sucked the dry layer up. I used a spray bottle to moisturize the coconut fibers lightly on the SURFACE LEVEL ONLY. It is moist but not wet.

Is this good?

Do you think I should use a heat lamp?
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Do not use a heat lamp as it will dry out the eggs. They will hatch just fine at room temp.

That may be good enough - be careful not to spray the eggs.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

So, can babies and teens coexist with one another? Until what age do they need to be separated before they bite each others' tails off?
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What I meant is that when is an age where they might start attacking each other?
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The males may fight when they reach sexual maturity.
Mine from last year have not started to fight yet. One of them is clearly the dominant male - the others respect him but there are no signs of combat, possibly because they are too young.

Don't keep the young with larger lizards. I've seen alligator lizards eating fence lizards (I would never do it myself for fear of parasite transmission) - so generally adults and young should not be mixed, and you probably don't want more than 1 male per tank as adults.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

It'll be difficult to monitor the eggs in that set up. You also risk mom deciding to eat the eggs, and yes females will sometimes tend bad eggs but yours sound good. You also risk mom eating the babies once they hatch. The eggs are fairly resistant, just dig down to them carfully and remove the mother first.

Place them in a container with damp vermiculite. One part vermiculite to .8 parts water by weight will work best. If you don't have access to a scale, you can get the vermiculite wet and then squeeze it to remove as much water as you can and use that. The vermiculite should feel damp but not wet. When removing the eggs, be careful not to rotate them and bury them about 3/4ths so that the top is still exposed. Put them somewhere where the temperature is relatively stable. Do not put holes in the lid. Check them weekly or biweekly to remove any bad eggs and give them some air exchange. The eggs should hatch in 1 and a half to 2 months depending on temperature.

-Alice

When I said in an earlier post I want in the future to set up a cage where female can guard her eggs - it is going to be complex setup similar to poison dart frog setup - complete with drainage, live plants (help hold humidity), and a place for the babies to hide when they hatch.

If you want the greatest possibility of success remove the eggs and incubate them as described.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Do you think these are good and fertilize?

I first put it into a round container but decide to move it to a square tuperware.

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The eggs are definately good. The substrate looks like it might be a bit too wet. I highly recommend getting some vermiculite. Orchard Supply and Hardware usually carries it. If there is too much moisture, you'll drown the embryos. I believe FunkyRes successfully incubated his eggs on coconut fiber last year so maybe he can give you some pointers if you want to use this in terms of moisture. The key is to have the substrate damp, but not wet.

The vermiculite also tends to be more "sterile" than the coconut fiber so there is less of an issue with mold etc. You could also try perlite (make sure there is no fertilizer added). I've used a 1 part perlite to .8 parts water by weight mixture to incubate leopard gecko eggs (I've been batting almost 100 with the alligator lizard eggs and vermiculite so I haven't tried the perlite on them). Perlite is available at stores like Walmart in the Garden Center.

Try to handle the eggs as little and as briefly as possible throughout the incubation process. Once you have them set up, there should be no need to touch them and try to limit checks that involve openning the lid to once a week until you near the hatch date.

-Alice

The substrate might look wet but it is really damp. When I pick up the substrate, there is no water. So, I think it is good. I squeeze every last drop out of it before I put it in.

I would take your recommendation on using vermiculite but honestly, I don't really want to move these eggs too much. I already moved it twice, and I am not even sure if I rotated any. I did my best on not and as gentle as I can. Now, I am a bit concern since you guys are adamant with not rotating them.

BTW... How long does egg laying happen after copulation?

Thank You for the confirmation.
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It doesn't look too wet too me.

What I did is made the fiber too wet below but squeezed the water out on the top layer. The thought was that water would evaporate from below to make up for lost humidity - but I don't think I needed to.

As they age, some of them will get brown stains - that's from the coconut fiber and the egg is fine.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Do you have pictures of a bad batch.
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They are really yellow.
I should have taken picture of cal king duds before I tossed them - different species, but same yellow. Lemon drop yellow.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

So, you agree with Alice that mine is a good batch right? How concern should I be about the rotation? I don't think I did but just concern drowning them.
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BTW... Does eggs get yellow because they are infertile or they become bad eggs?
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If an egg become bad because it got turned over, how long does it take before it shows signs?

How careful were you when you moved your eggs Funky or Alice? How did you move it where you don't rotate them? I mean if you rotate it like 1 degree, is it a big deal?
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A little rotation early on won't hurt anything. The reason that you want to minimize rotation is that the blood vessels etc that are set up to absorb oxygen are forming in the egg and if these form on top and you make the top the bottom you can drown the embryo. Alligator lizard eggs are pretty resilient, but you should still try to keep them in their original orientation. In good eggs, like yours, moisture levels and consistent temperatures will be the most important factors for success. If good eggs go bad, you'll typically see mold, denting (despite sufficient moisture), and / or notice an odor. Infertile eggs are typically poorly calcified so the yolk shows through(hence the yellow color) and there are no blood vessels forming that would give them that subtle pinkish cast that good eggs have. As your eggs near hatching you'll see that pinkish color disappear and the eggs will take on a subtle gray cast.

In terms of the duration of time between copulation and laying, it's variable. Females typically are going to lay about now regardless of when they bred. If they bred early in the season, they'll just store the sperm until the time is right. A lot of times you can tell a wild caught female has bred by flipping her over and looking for a "U" shaped scar on her chin. When breeding, males will grasp the female's head in their mouth and may hold on for over 24 hours. I agree with FunkyRes that both your als look like females and if they were breeding in your care, you'd likely notice.

-Alice

That is some nice information that you gave.

If the other one is a female, then how come she has not laid any eggs yet? I have had that one for a while now. I thought they laid eggs regardless if they mate or not.
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What do they eat? Mealworms?

What are the preparation for new babies?
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pinhead crickets - every two or three feedings dust with calcium and reptivite.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

If you don't poke holes and when they hatch, will they suffocate?
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Eventually - at about Day 40 check them daily. When they start hatching it may take a few days for them all to come out. What I did last year when they started hatching is I put the container in a tank and no longer used the rubber band to keep saran wrap on top - so that as they hatched, they would just crawl out and leave the incubating tub into the tank.

Last year my first one hatched on Day 45. If I remember, 2 hatched that day, 7 on day 46, and the last one on Day 47.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)