Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was reading Proexotics' care sheet and the care sheet written by Randall Grey and both of them said you can feed some kind of insects to Uromastyx. Proexotics feeds roaches to their ornates. Randall Grey said he had fed his Uro crickets and mealworms from hatchlings to adulthood without any problems mentioned by some keepers. It seem some people really do feed their Uro insects and the opinions seem to varied from keeper to keeper even among experts. What do you think?

most experienced keepers will say absolutely no insects. If you look at the positives and negatives of feeding them, the negatives far outweigh the positive.

I know what some experienced keepers say, but I've read there are some that do feed them insects like Proexotics and Randal Grey. At least they say they have not encounter any problems over the years of raising them. What sort of health problems do they develop by eating insects. I've read there are health problems, but nobody is willing to go into details on the care sheet.

gout, kidney failure, etc. I am not 100% sure on what specifics are caused, but basically you are overloading a vegetarian with protein, their body isnt meant to handle it.

I know what animal protein does to herbivorous lizards. I've read it over and over again on anapsid.org because I own a 3 year old iguana and he eats nothing but veggies and greens. But all the research I've done on Uromastyx seems to point out that they haven't a clue what these lizards eat in the wild. There hasn't been much study done for some reason. But from what I've read on Deer Fern Farm website, they do eat the occasional insects. Although, they say the Uro probably eat the occasional insects, they don't feed them insects...only veggies and greens and some seeds for extra protein. On Randal Grey's, one of the first person who successfully bred Uro, care sheet it stated that he fed his Uro insects 3-4 times a week with no ill effects, and he has kept a lot of Uro in the past. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of information about this genus for some reason.

I think that if you combine all the info available, the consensus is that a few bugs in the diet are a good thing so long's they don't diminish the amount of greens & "seed" foods.
Observing captive Uros delight with a few crickets leads me to assume that an insect diet in the wild, to some extent, is perfectly normal.
Only guessing here. We don't feed insects to our Uros. Not that we think it's a bad thing in moderation, just that we favor the train of thought that it's not neccessary in order to raise a healthy Uro.
Cheerios,
Dan.

let me say im no expert. i bought 2 wc saharans last year and when the male i purchased started loosing weight an dnot eating greens, 1 of the "experts" INSTRUCTED ME TO FEED INSECTS and ill be damned if that male is still going strong he preffers insects over greens but also dandelions over insects. i say they are opportunistic feeders in the wild and eat what they can when they can. insects can be seaonal just as veggies are in the desert. 1 season could be bugs and another blooming flowers with the next one beeing greens after the blooms have dropped. so if your uro eats them feed them to him, but the whole majority will agree taht the diet should be varied and seeds should always be available. give greens with the occasional bugs and youll be fine
adam.
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

I gotta say, there are many 'care sheets' out there written by people with limited experience, and many by people who just need something to do with their time and don't have a clue. If you speak with a breeder, who has worked with various species for 5 years they will tell you no insects at all.

In the wild, it has been 'suggested' that they may eat insects accidentally along with their greens. Feeding insects on a regular basis, has been shown to have ill effects on particular organs and I would assume could lead to a shorter life span. I personally, see no positive effects for feeding insects, to either WC or CB Uro's.

However, I will add that you must put trust in who you gather your information from. I have read countless care sheets prior to buying my Uro's and each one seemed to contradict the rest. Is there any one care sheet that is the 'end all be all' absolutely not. I would also be wary of advice given by a breeder who also says its ok to put a Uro in a 20 long for any given span of time. I would never subject any animal in my care to anyone who gives information just to makes sales, especially those (and/or pet stores) who claim to be selling a CB Uro but have no proof of anything to justify that.

i wont name the expert i spoke too but he is one of the top 3 in the country, a very trustworthy person. and i must say by adding insects to the diet of my uros their weight has increased quite a bit. i still suggest people doing their own research and going with what is felt to be the best by majority rule.
i must say one thing i have learned from breeding snakes the last 10 years is that their are a lot of practices others say not to do that actually are ok to do. live and learn. dont take everything as gospel because a lot of info is wrong and outdated.
i will continue with insects in my uros diet but not as a staple.
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/uromastyx.html

I have read several other studies that indicated the same for other species of uromastyx as well. They are sold as 'vegetarian' herps mostly because they do primarily eat vegetation, but people disregard the fact that they do eat animal protein. Actually, most people would be surprised to find out that most 'vegetarian' reptiles indulge in animal protein from time to time. Iguanas have been known to eat mice and birds in the wild. Tortoises have been known to feast on carcasses and eat worms and other slow insects. Some have even claimed the certain species of tortoise will hunt and kill small rodents.

Yes, uromastyx are primarily vegetarians. Will they do fine on a vegetarian diet? Most likely. Will they do good if you give them insects every now and then? Most likely. You will probably see an increase in growth.

Gout and renal failure are more indicative of poor environmental conditions, and perhaps feeding excessive protein to an animal that is primarily vegetarian will have an effect, but for the most part these are caused by chronic dehydration.

Actually, there are medical evidence on iguana that died from eating too much animal protein. Once in a long while probably won't kill them, but green iguanas are strict herbivores. There has been quite a lot of study done green iguana because they are so popular, and it all suggested that they are herbivores. However, they will eat strange thing in captivity much like the way dogs do. They develop some kind of behavior problem in captivity much like the way dogs living with human. But for Uromasytx genus, they have been kept not as long as some other lizards in the pet trade, so there hasn't been enough info about them. But it seems some do feed their Uro insects with no ill effect for years and years.

While this is also true you have to recognize that green iguanas don't do well in captivity because there are very few people that both recognize the difference between good and bad husbandry and have the abilities to apply the good. Green iguanas are usually kept too dry and too cold. That's a recipe for disaster, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about right now. It has been observed that they will eat animal protein in the wild. Why? Maybe to aid in reproduction, or maybe to build fat reserves. I'm sure it is not a frequent thing, but it happens, just like Red-footed tortoises eating rodents.

Uromastyx have been observed intentionally eating beetles and ants in the wild. We know they do it, so end of that discussion. Then the question becomes both why do they do it, and how much do they usually consume, and I would say those are more important questions to ask than arguing over whether or not they will eat insects in the wild. They are obligate vegetarians, 'obligate' being the key word.

Also, let's all keep in mind that all we have are other peoples' studies. None of us have actually studied their feeding habits and patterns in the wild so we don't really have much to go on. I am going on the studies I have read.

"Yes, uromastyx are primarily vegetarians. Will they do fine on a vegetarian diet? Most likely. Will they do good if you give them insects every now and then? Most likely. You will probably see an increase in growth.

Gout and renal failure are more indicative of poor environmental conditions, and perhaps feeding excessive protein to an animal that is primarily vegetarian will have an effect, but for the most part these are caused by chronic dehydration."

The problem here is what is the proper amount that can be fed without it becoming too much on the Uro's digestive system. Pet stores and keepers will say 2-3 per day, others 2-3 per week, and some say 1 a month. Problem here is, your just taking one person's opinion as a factual statement. Field studies may indicate animal protein is ingested 'accidentally' with the greens.

If you feed crickets on a regular basis, yes the Uro will recognize it and eat it. Will they do this if the enclosure was larger then what we use, say 20'x20' in an attempt to stimulate more of a wild type setting.. maybe they wont seek it out as food. Choice is obviously up to the keeper, but a keeper that pushes his/her opinion as fact is when it becomes a danger to other Uro's. Every Uro's health may vary, therefore the amount of animal protein they COULD consume safely, varies as well. I think a true study needs to be done on the effects of protein in Uro's.

There are a lot of people who feed their Uro insects for years with no problems. I think that say something about what they eat in the wild.

” There are a lot of people who feed their Uro insects for years with no problems.”

There are a lot of people that smoke a pack of cigarettes each day without contracting emphysema or cancer, shall we declare cigarettes no problem?

Just because you have some people suggesting that they have fed their uromastyx low levels of protein for years and the animal is ‘fine’, does not suggest that the next animal will be fine nor does it even suggest that the animal being described as ‘fine’ is actually fine. In some situations, it simply means that the animal is still eating, breathing, and walking around.

There are thousands of smokers that are declaring themselves health today that are unknowingly walking around with early stages of a disease directly linked to their smoking- the disease just has not yet surfaced and it may take many years.

There have been studies in the field on several species of uromastyx showing that these animals did not intentionally consume insects in nature as adults or as juveniles. These studies showed that insect material was insignificant (one study with seasonal variation showed one fecal pellet out of 425 containing a beetle) so there is data that exists that you can look into.

While you are looking, I would also look at morphology as almost everything points in the direction of uromastyx being a true herbivore. Pay attention to things like the length of the stomach and intestine, jaw/tooth morphology, biting/swallowing mechanism, hindgut fermentation, number and type of natural microorganisms, transverse fold/partitions in the intestine….

Will you increase the growth rate of your uromastyx by feeding it animal protein? Yes possibly-depending on the amount fed. But, you will also increase the growth rate of an iguana by feeding it animal protein so what is the point? To me, an excessive growth rate (that which greatly exceeds that of nature) is not a ‘good’ thing.

I remember not too long ago when the same insect/animal protein argument was made for iguanas. I remember the so called ‘experts’ suggesting that iguanas were omnivores and even the same old- ‘juveniles need insects but outgrow the need as adults’ reasoning. I remember the argument that an iguana would not eat insects or mice if they were not ‘meant’ to. I remember reading in magazines and books that iguanas should be offered animal protein and witnessed veterinarians passing this information along to clients. I also remember it taking many, many years to correct this misinformation while a lot of iguanas met an untimely death.

You still see some owners swearing today that it is fine to feed animal protein to iguanas and a quick search on a video website will likely result in numerous videos of iguanas being fed mice with the owner declaring their animal perfectly fit and sound. If someone has fed their iguana a pinky a day for the last eight years and the animal is still alive and the owner suggests it is doing well- should we conclude that it is perfectly safe to feed all iguanas animal protein? What if you have ten people with a similar story, should we then declare that it must be a natural part of an iguanas diet or that it is ok to feed all iguanas animal protein? At what number of animal protein success stories from iguana owners do we declare that feeding animal protein to an iguana is ok- 10, 30, 45? Yet, we think that it is perfectly fine to do this with uromastyx?

Over the years I have acquired a couple of uromastyx from individuals that felt the need to feed insects. One was a twelve year old ornate that was fed a small amount of insects weekly. The owner described the animal as very tame and perfectly healthy with the exception of a growth on his toe. The ‘tame’ was actually lethargy and partially due to the animal being overweight and the growth was gout (not limited to toe) as verified by radiographs, tissue/tophi, and blood work. The owner was clueless as would have been 99% of the people that looked at that animal. Many people will see an animal with good weight (even excessive) and suggest that it is healthy from this one characteristic alone. In fact, I am sure that if the previous owner still had the animal, he would be one of those posting that he has fed his uromastyx a little insect material weekly and has never had any problems.

The animal above has been on an insect free diet for two years and his activity level has increased significantly. As the diet was changed over to a healthy diet appropriate for an herbivore- the activity level increased and some of the excessive weight was shed resulting in a greater level of activity and alertness. While his gout issues will never be fully resolved, his condition is being monitored and addressed, I do not anticipate the life expectancy of this animal to be anywhere near the life expectancy of the other ornates in my care that were not fed animal protein. As the gout was advanced when the animal came into my care, he has already survived longer than we thought he would since the original evaluation and diagnostics.

Another animal was a nigriventris, it came to me via a long route linking back to one of those early uromastyx ‘experts’ who fed insects sparingly for years and for the other two owners who followed that person’s lead. The age of the animal was estimated to be somewhere around 13 years. This animal came to me because of unknown health issues and was euthanized due to renal failure.

Without diagnostics (which very few bother to do), no one would have known what the issue was with this animal. Had the animal simply died in someone else’s care, I am quite certain that renal failure would have been overlooked or suggested as an end stage situation not the primary disease itself and therefore never linked back to insects/animal protein.

I do not post on this topic very often as there are those that are dead set intent on dismissing the link between feeding animal protein to an herbivore and any/all subsequent health issues and I get tired of the unproductive dialog that tends to take place with this type of poster. In fact, many of these pro-insect people are reading this and coming up with other possibilities in their head for the gout and renal failure in the situations I shared above- dehydration, medication, improper temperatures…. While all of these things can lend to some of the problems of gout and renal failure, none as significant (in my opinion) as feeding excess protein to an herbivore. These same people also casually dismiss (or fail to look for) the data out there that points to uromastyx being an herbivore and/or credible research that shows the adverse impact that feeding animal protein has on an herbivore. Does hydration play a role in some of these conditions? Sure, but so does feeding animal protein to an herbivore. Combine the two and you have a recipe for disaster.

Just a little background…. In the first year or so after acquiring uromastyx, I too offered a few insects per week due to some of the reasons mentioned in this thread. As I started to acquire more uromastyx and noticed that only one or two would eat insects, I began to question why this was. Believing what I heard about uromastyx being an omnivore, I thought perhaps I must be doing something wrong so I sought out and offered a variety of insects feeling that perhaps it was the type of insect being offered. After acquiring and observing more than a dozen uromastyx and noting that only a couple would accept any type of insects, I decided to find my own answers. This research which started many years ago (which is still ongoing today) led me to the firm belief that uromastyx are indeed herbivores and that insect material should not be fed on a regular basis.

Just as those thousands of ticking time bomb smokers I mentioned earlier are out there now walking around claiming perfect health while dismissing everything from a cough to sore throats and hoarseness on colds, I am willing to bet the same thing is happening with a lot of uromastyx that are regularly fed animal protein. Whether that dismissal be the overly ‘tame’ animal, the ‘pudgy’ couch potato, the animal that routinely has issues keeping microorganisms in check, shedding problems, eye infections, or any other issue that might be surfacing. Not many owners will think about the possibility that the stress (body and immune) of routinely feeding animal protein to an herbivore might be playing a role with some of the surfacing conditions they are seeing and that some of these things might just be signs of the ticking time bomb set to go off several years down the road.

Just as I would recommend to a smoker that they have routine medical checkups including lung x-rays, I suggest all uromastyx owners that want to ignore the studies and data showing these animals are herbivore and the impact that animal protein can have on the system of an herbivore also do routine diagnostics. My suggestion would be regular blood work and radiographs. At the very least, have some blood work done as the animal declines or presents with an illness and have a professional necropsy upon death.

Appearances can be deceiving and I think that routinely feeding an herbivore animal protein is similar to playing Russian Roulette with one bullet in the chamber. As we do not know what amount may result in harm or which animal’s might avoid the bullet, following a practice that has the potential of causing harm without monitoring the results (diagnostics not how the animal ‘looks’) is like pointing the gun at your animal’s head.

So am I posting to suggest that a couple insects will result in the demise of your uromastyx? No. Just as thousands of people that smoke a pack of cigarettes a day may avoid that bullet, so may quite a few uromastyx. The question becomes- is it simply worth playing the game?

Like I said before there are breeder like Proexotics and Randall Grey who have fed insects to Uromastyx with no problems. And these are some of the longest living Uro in captivity. There are study done that seem to suggest they do eat insects in the wild when opportunity arises depending on the season and availability. I think that gout and renal failture has to do with husbandry than the diet. I know of an argus monitor who develop gout from eating rodents. Yes, even carnivorous reptiles develop gout in captivity, but it has to do more with husbandry issue than anything. Meeting nutritional need for this genus is very difficult because there aren't a lot of information...

“There are study done that seem to suggest they do eat insects in the wild when opportunity arises depending on the season and availability.”

Actually, there are not all that many references to this (unless you count the references referencing references) and a lot of the data that does exist seems to be more limited/incidental findings and personal speculation than actual studies. As previously mentioned, there are now several long-term studies showing that adults and juveniles of several species do not seek out insects and this data includes seasonal variations.

My post was not about whether ‘some’ uromastyx might consume insects or if an insignificant amount of insect material exists in the diet of some uromastyx in nature. My post was suggesting that there is clear evidence that uromastyx are herbivores and that animal protein can adversely impact herbivores. I also mentioned that we have no idea at what level harm may occur or which animal might be more prone to suffer disease from regularly ingesting animal protein and that there are more drawbacks than benefits to feeding animal protein to an herbivore.

Again, I want to make it perfectly clear that my points are directed toward long term and/or excessive feeding of animal protein to an herbivore in captivity not whether some uromastyx might occasionally consume a few insects in their natural habitat.

If you want to continue feeding your diet of 40% insect matter to the uromastyx you have owned for one month because you read a couple of care sheets suggesting animal protein is fine and/or because you are taking the opinion of some keepers that have been feeding animal protein who look at their animal and declare it perfectly healthy several years into the practice of feeding insects - than so be it. I will stick with my own experience with dozens of these animals and the years of research I have invested in this topic as a basis for my action of not regularly offering insects to my uromastyx. However, I will once again suggest a little research into whether or not your mali is an herbivore (real research such as morphology- not opinionated care sheets) and how regularly feeding insects might impact the health of an herbivore. If you are of the frame of mind that iguanas should not be fed insects, I suggest applying that same logic to your newest reptile and for the same reasons.

” I think that gout and renal failture has to do with husbandry than the diet.”

I think poor husbandry can certainly exacerbate some of the problems associated with feeding too much animal matter to an herbivore such as renal issues and gout but there is clear evidence showing that feeding too much animal protein to an herbivore can result in harm regardless of husbandry.

“I know of an argus monitor who develop gout from eating rodents. Yes, even carnivorous reptiles develop gout in captivity, but it has to do more with husbandry issue than anything”

As I have no clue what type of gout developed in the monitor and whether the condition you are referring to deals with an overproduction of uric acid or the animal’s failure to deal with normal levels, I can only throw a little speculation at the situation.

I do not believe that the gout developed from the monitor simply eating rodents.
The gout developed due to an underlying cause such as a genetic abnormality like an enzyme deficiency, an underlying health issue, renal disease, drug interference, or a number of other issues that could impact the animal’s ability to effectively handle uric acid.

While husbandry issues like dehydration, long-term inadequate temperatures, and starvation/emaciation can certainly impact this ability by causing an underlying health condition like renal disease leading to the development of gout; it is also a possibility that there was an underlying non-husbandry related cause.

I agree with you that husbandry can have a direct influence on issues like renal disease leading to gout but again, I think your logic is slightly skewed in suggesting that feeding animal protein to an herbivore is not a significant risk if the husbandry is fine. The system of an herbivore is not meant to handle large amounts of animal protein so elevated levels of animal protein alone can result in disease for an herbivore- even those kept in a stellar living environment. While it would likely take something more such as husbandry or an underlying cause such as I mentioned above for something like gout to develop in a carnivore, I think it a little irresponsible to simply apply this logic to an herbivore and suggest that increased levels of animal protein are fine if the husbandry/living conditions are adequate.

Again, I am not suggesting that a couple insects here and there will definitely hurt a uromastyx, I am just suggesting that this is an herbivore, regularly feeding and/or excessive animal protein can adversely impact an herbivore, we do not have enough data to know how much is too much, regularly feeding animal protein is not necessary for the health of an herbivore, and there are more cons than pros to feeding.

Now I am going to bow out of this thread as I see no point in continuing to repeat the same points over and over. Those that have an open mind likely understood the points in my first post and those that do not have an open mind- never will.

Thank you Gregory for acknowledging that there is at least one person out there that does not mind reading through longwinded posts with an open mind.

ciao

debb_luvs_uros:

Thank you so much for your excellent and thorough post. I want you to know it was not for naught. I learned a ton from it. Based on Paradon's reply to your post, I think it's safe to say that despite Paradon's original post where it seemed Paradon was honestly soliciting opinions on the subject, Paradon made up his/her mind before his/her original post on this topic.

I have read everything also and for years have allowed my male saharan, Crispy, to eat a few superworms a week. Years ago I dropped one outside his tank and he went insane trying to get it though the glass. It was then that I gave him a few, he was so excited and gobbled them like candy.

I have had Crispy about 9 years, I see no apparent problem from his occasional bugfest.

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PHEve / Eve

That's what I'm saying. I know people who have been feeding their Uro some insects for years and nothing bad happens.

Thanks for sharing the info!

I'll agree on the occasional. My spike gets the occasional insect- ge goes absolutely wild for superworms.

I've seen Gators chomping Sooners and Bulldogs recently, but Buckeyes (nuts from Ohio) digest easily too.

Try to forgive me for enjoying their recent success - we didn't win a single game one of my years at UF.

”Try to forgive me for enjoying their recent success”

I fully support you on this endeavor Lindsay as given your age, you need to take advantage of all the current memories you can before you start losing this ability leaving only past Gator history. Which, from your own admission, does not sound all that memorable or enjoyable?

FLOCK together, and since I'm from Eagle country, I must say FLY EAGLES FLY.... ON TO VICTORY... may be the last time in my lifetime, LMAO
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PHEve / Eve