Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I received an adult veiled chameleon that has has been diagnosed with MBD. I would welcome anyone's suggestions about how to provide optimal care for this animal. Of course, I'll take it to the vet as soon as possible. Thank you

in response to the pm you sent me, without knowing any of the specifics, there is really nothing anybody can do other than guess, i will say this, mbd is a complex issue and not easily reversed, and its not likely that a vet who is not a herp vet will be able to do much good either, imo mbd is most often brought on by not just not just light issues alone, but also a combination of lighting and nutritional supplementation issues. its pretty much a given that as long as he has less than optimum care, the situation is likely to get worse, my suggestion would honestly be to turn him over to somebody with exp. in rescuing chams with mbd (not me).short of doing that, my suggestion would be, get a genuine qualified herp vet http://web.archive.org/web/20040611201113/www.arav.org/USMembers.htm get a genuine reptisun 5.0 lineal (not cfl)tube light,get him regular natural sunlight, be prepared to educate yourself on all issues of cham care with extra effort being given to learning nutritional and supplementle issues in depth. generally , in the hands of an inexperienced keepers, over supplementation is more of an issue than under supplementation, so based on that assumption, i would reccomend limiting his supplemention to calcium only (no d3 or multi vites ) until his supplementation regimen has been reviewed by a qualified herp vet and/or a cham keeper experienced with mbd issues. my guess is that he will probably need a complete blood panel and follow up visits combined with knowledgeable care, so be prepared to spend money and educate yourself in depth on all aspects of cham care. unfortunately there is no easy fix, what takes time to manifest itself, will take time to improve, so be prepared for a long and possibly expensive and heart breaking road. sorry i didnt have a simpler solution

We need a lot more information! The specifics of his previous care (diet, supplements and dosages, lighting), a photo so we can see the extent of the MBD, and how you are caring for him now. A lot of cham problems are attributed to MBD but without knowing a lot more we can't even begin to work on it. Even overdoses of calcium and D3 can result in symptoms that look similar to MBD. MBD can be treated...or at least halted with good husbandry if it isn't too far advanced. There are lots of chams out there with some degree of MBD that are alive today...maybe a bit bent, but have a decent quality of life.

Thank you both for your responses. I just received this little girl yesterday, and she is breaking my heart. Apparently, her first owner was a child who didn't realize the damage he did. The previous owner was very knowledgable and very responsible, but he could not afford a vet. He did the best he could with the correct lighting, food and supplements.

Honestly, tho, she looks just awful. She has several ribs sticking out, so I presume they are broken. All of her joints are "knobby". Now, I don't care about deformities and imperfections---I'll never try to breed her, obviously. But I care VERY much about pain and I just can't stand to see an animal suffering. I don't know enough about chams to know if she is suffering or not, but I do know that it looks like climbing is a laborious task for her. She was so exhausted that she fell asleep on my shoulder. Also, last night I put her on a branch, and she stayed there the entire night. I had to move her this morning, and she still hasn't climbed on a perch. Is this normal behavior for a cham?

I'm taking her to a vet today for a work-up, but what I really want to know is, is she suffering? If so, can the pain be helped by calcitonin injections, or whatever treatment the vet recommends? I know she'll always have deformities and special needs, but will she experience pain from them for the rest of her life? Would the kindest thing for her be to think about euthanasia, or can she live a pain-free life?

I would appreciate anyone's honest thoughts about this. I just can't stand to see her suffer, but then again, maybe she's not...

Yes,that sounds like severe mbd and she is DEFINITELY suffering...I would not hesitate to euthanise...vet visits will ad greatly to her stress and it sounds as if she has broken bones...no quality of life.Sorry to say,,,that's my opinion.

Thank you for your reply. She is SUCH a beautiful creature. The more I watch her, the more I think she is suffering. I'm torn, though, because I haven't seen veiled chams enough to know if her behavior is normal or if it's a sign of pain. She eats well. I don't want to euthanize an animal that can be rehabilitated, but I don't want to prolong suffering either. I'm headed for the vet in about a half hour, so we'll see his opinion. In the meantime, thank you so much for your opinion. It helps me, since I'm a novice at caring for chams.

In all honesty,I may have jumped the gun...you are right to take her to a vet and if she eats well that's a good sign.A picture could have told more of the story and veileds DO have odd-looking joints anyway.Exposure to natural sun will be a help if your weather permits..I hope the vet has encouraging news for you.I would keep handling to a bare minimum..if at all.Best wishes for your little one...

If she is alert enough to eat and drink, that makes a difference I think. If she's just sitting with her eyes shut constantly she's pretty far gone and preoccupied with her misery. If she's alert we don't really know how much pain she's in. Cham ribs are more cartilege than bone but do heal. She's exhausted and weak because of poor nutrition. A good diet and supplements might do a lot in a short time. An animal suffering so much that it can't or won't eat has lost interest in life. That's when I would euthanize.

Thank you both for your imput. It's really hard to figure out the right thing to do when you're not used to seeing the normal behavior of a healthy animal.

I just got back from the vet. He did a complete body x-ray (no blood work.) He said she clearly has MBD, but that it looks like she has fought hard to come a long way. Her weight is good. He said the reason she has so much trouble climbing is that she is missing 2 toes on her front foot and can't get a good grip. He said he doesn't think she's in pain, and it's too early to euthanize her. So, the plan is to bring her back tomorrow for some vitamin, calcium and antibiotic injections.

I've only had her about 24 hours, but for some reason she really touches my heart. I want to try to help her. I just hope the vet is right, and she is not in pain.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts and info.

If the vet gives her injections of calcium for a few weeks and then, when the blood calcium levels are high enough, gives her a shot of calcitonin to draw the calcium rapidly back into the bones, it will be the quickest way to get her calcium back in balance and her bones strong again.

You also need to make sure your husbandry is good so that she will be healthy and not slip back into calcium issues.

Calcium, phosphorous, vitamin D3 and vitamin A are the main players in bone health and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements you use, what you feed to the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites that help to explain those nutrients and their relationship...
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502074401/www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421082042/www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102

And one about MBD...
http://adcham.com/html/veterinary/mbd-fractures-kramer.html

Exposure to UVB either from an appropriate UVB bulb or from the sunlight will allow the chameleon to produce D3 which will allow it to use the calcium in its system. The UVB from either source should not pass through glass or plastic. The most recommended UVB bulb is the long linear Repti-sun 5.0.

Many of the feeder insects used to feed the chameleon have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. so dusting with a phos.-free calcium powder helps to make up for this.

I also dust with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder twice a month. D3 from supplements can build up in the system...so don't overdo it.

I dust with a vitamin powder twice a month that has a beta carotene source of vitamin A. Beta carotene (prOformed vitamin A) is only converted as needed. However, its not certain if all or any chameleons can convert it...so some people give a little prEformed vitamin A every once in a while. PrEformed vitamin A can build up in the system though...so it must be given carefully. Excess prEformed vit. A can interfere with the D3 and push the chameleon towards MBD.

Its important to feed/gutload your insects properly too. Crickets, superworms, etc. can be given a wide variety of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet red pepper, sweet potato, zucchini, etc.).

Veiled chameleons can be given the same greens and veggies as well as a little bit of fruit (apple, pear, melon, berries, etc.) in addition to insects.

Please be aware that a female veiled can lay eggs even when it hasn't been mated...so once its sexually mature, its important that there is a place for it to dig in the cage...failure to provide her a place to lay eggs can lead to eggbinding and eventually death.

Hope that this helps and that you can get her back to good health and keep her there!

Thank you for your reply. It was a lot of information expressed in a simple format, so I could "digest" it easier and understand it better. I have 3 questions and I'd really appreciate it if you can help =)
1) do I absolutely have to use a Reptisun tubular light? I've got a very expensive Powersun 100watts self ballasted Mercury Vapor bulb, which the petshop said I had to buy. Is that ok, or did I waste my money?
2)Can I use Flukers cricket food to gut-load them, or do I have to worry about special diets for crickets?
3)About caging and substrate;not too sure what to do. I know chams need screen cages, but I'm presuming that's only if the temperature of your house is reasonable. My house id old and drafty, and gets down to the 58-60 degrees at night during the winter. I thought that was too cold for Esmerelda, so I put her in a glass exoterra, about 18x18x18, to maintain heat better. I keep the screen top open for ventilation, and open the glass doors several times a day for ventilation. Is that ok?
4)I'm using 1/2 inch eco earth, with an undertank heater in case she wants to hang out on the ground to catch crickets. Is that ok?

and one last thing... she can't climb at sharp vertical angles or hang onto thick branches like a normal cham can because she's missing two toes. So I was thinking I should maybe change her cage to a tank that has more width than height to compensate. That way she doesn't have to climb so high to reach warmth and light. What do you think about that?
Thanks for your patience

Glad the information was easy enough to digest! That's what I aim for!

You said..."do I absolutely have to use a Reptisun tubular light? I've got a very expensive Powersun 100watts self ballasted Mercury Vapor bulb, which the petshop said I had to buy. Is that ok, or did I waste my money?"...I have never used a mercury vapor bulb...but I know that you need to be careful if you use it. Here's a very good website that talks about them and other bulbs...
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/mercuryvapourlamps.htm

You said..."Can I use Flukers cricket food to gut-load them, or do I have to worry about special diets for crickets?"..you can use a commercial product but you need to make sure that the calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A in the chameleon's diet/supplements/etc. stays in balance...and sometimes using a commercial product makes that difficult. I prefer to use a natural diet....and for me its not much work because I also keep turtles/tortoises and other omnivorous lizards.

Concerning caging...I have used glass cages with screen lids or glass cages with screen lids and doors for over 20 years now for chameleons...I live in Canada and certainly wouldn't recommend this if you lived in a hot country....but its hard to keep the screen cages warm enough in the winter especially. You need to make sure that water doesn't sit stagnant on the floor of the cage and I recommend mounting the basking light and UVB lights to one corner/side to help with the air flow but those are the main problems. I have had people say that the chameleon reacts negatively to its reflection in the glass, but this has never been a problem. My chameleons live long healthy lives in these cages.

You said your house gets down to the 58-60 degrees at night during the winter....that's a little too cool IMHO for chameleons. You can use a ceramic heat bulb at night if you really need heat in the cage. I don't use any under-the-cage heat.

Regarding substrate...I don't use any in my chameleon cages. I worry about them causing impaction when/if its ingested.

You said..."she can't climb at sharp vertical angles or hang onto thick branches like a normal cham can because she's missing two toes. So I was thinking I should maybe change her cage to a tank that has more width than height to compensate. That way she doesn't have to climb so high to reach warmth and light"...this would be fine. I also put long pieces of tree bark in cages on a more gentle slope with old/disabled chameleons that have difficulty climbing so that they have more like a long rough ramp to climb rather than a vertical surface. I really think that chameleons like horizontal space as well as vertical space.

Don't worry about asking questions...I like to see people succeed with chameleons. I will answer them the best I can...can guarantee I will know all the answers though! Even after over 20 years of keeping them, I'm still learning!

Keep in mind that the proper distance is critical with mercury v.bulb...cham.can easily be burned,also the bulb can't be set at an angle,need to be straight down...lots of directions on package insert...so if you go with a shorter tank,the merc.v.bulb will have to be some distance from the basking spot in order for the cham. not to be burned ...and go with no substrate for the reason alread ymentioned by kinyonga and also bacteria can grow if you get substrate wet from dripper.Crickets will benefit from any leafy greens and you can feed them any leftover fruit you may eat instead of throwing away[occasionally,like apple core,cantaloupe rind,etc,just take any un-eaten fruit daily]More veggies though,they are more nutritious.You can also offer your cham.leafy greens on a veggie clip attached to one of it's branches...it's good for them,too.

Considering that you are thinking of using a glass tank for warmth and a wider shorter one for climbing safety I think the mercury vapor bulb will be too hot generally (a risk of thermal burns on a cham who won't be as reactive or agile) and too dry (she might be more easily dehydrated because she's aleady compromised and because you'll need more air exchange to keep a tank from getting stagnant). You can raise the bulb higher over the tank, but too far and the UV she'll get will drop. Not something you want if you are trying to provide optimum lighting to reverse MBD. Also, a lot of the heat will be dispersed into the room and MV bulbs are fairly expensive in terms of energy use. You may not need all these expensive watts. For a tank, a general white house light bulb at one end will work for basking and heat gradient, and a tube ReptiSun 5.0 will be the safer option to provide UVB. The tube lights don't produce much heat but the fixture ballasts create a little. Again, they'll be on top of the tank and heat rises.

Man, this is so complicated! I've got a green tree python, and let me tell you, keeping it healty and happy is NOTHING compared to this! I feel like if you can maintain a healthy VC, you can do absolutely anything...

I've got her in a 10 gallon tank with paper towel substrate. I'm sure it's totally inadequate for a healthy cham, but I'm thinking that maybe a smaller home makes a sick reptile feel more secure??? As she grows stronger I can move her to a taller, permanent cage. She's got several levels of branches that she can climb, all with a gentle slope. Lots of fake leaves to hide in. I've been misting 2-3 times per day, and I put 10 gut fed and calcium dusted crickets in her cage.
I put a heat lamp on one side, and tomorrow I'll get a 5.0 Reptisun tube bulb, since everybody swears by it. She'll go back to the vet on Friday for injections of meds.

Does that sound right? What else can/should I do for her? Thanks

Keep an eye on the loose crix. They have been known to chew on sleeping chams. You can put some gutload or piece of fruit in a plastic prescription bottle lying on its side on the bottom of the tank. Or, just remove uneaten crix at night.