Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Problem: Recurrent eyelid closure/swelling and lethargy in T. o. ornata.

I acquired a group of 3.5 LTC T. o. ornata over the summer. I am overwintering as their weight was insufficient for me to be comfortable attempting to hibernate. They are set up per Russ Gurley "Keeping and Breeding Freshwater Turtles". They have all been panacured and treated with flagyl x 3 applications. Feeding on superworms, mealworms, occasional cooked chicken necks, romaine lettuce. Food dusted with Zoo-med reptile vitamin powder 1x per week. Have orally dosed with avian liquid vitamins 3-4x. Have gained considerable body weight. They will be eating, alert and active one day then develop problem. I will soak and use eye drops with vit A which will allow them to open eyes and then they will feed. Have treated with opthalmic antibx ointment from my vet. All have cycled through this problem 2-5x then regained normal status. When ill they are removed from the group to a similar set up until apparent recovery. One female has never developed these symptoms. Thanks for any and all input.

I'm not an Ornate box turtle keeper, but I have to ask why you would be treating them like aquatics, when they are a more terrestrial species accustomed to drier habitats?

Tess Cook has a book out on box turtle care that might be a better source of husbandry and health tips.

Gurly's book title is misleading. He has an excellent section on box turtles, precisely describing terrestrial enclosures,(including excellent advice on substrate mixtures), light, temp, feeding for each species and subspecies in detail that I have not seen elsewhere. Highlights of his work can be reviewed at

http://animal-world.com/encyclo/reptiles/turtles/OrnateBoxTurtle.php

I have works on box turtles by Vosjoli, Highfield, Cook, Patterson, Dodd, Franklin & Killpack as well as MacArthur, Wilkinson, amd Meyer's Medicine and Surgery of Tortoises and Turtles and haven't seen this problem discussed. Many do not make much distinction between ornata ornata and carolina spp. with exception of drier environment and difficukty to establish.

I am hoping someone has had some experience with this problem and might have more specific advice. Thanks!

The first thing to look at when seeing recurring swollen eyes is humidity levels. It is very common to see indoor box turtles with this problem.

Thanks for the advice. The ambient humidity in the room is 45%. In their enclosure is a "hide" where the humidity is 70%. Is this sufficient? They use this often. I have three toed box turtles in this room also. They have no hide, just a substrate of peat and sphagnum, covered with cypress mulch that is misted each day. The ornates have a substrate of peat, sand and cypress mulch, also misted daily.

If I were in your place, I'd try boosting the humidity some more, provide a shallow soaking dish if they don't already have one, and keep the substrate in their hide moist.

An ideal indoor setup provides a range (albeit on a small scale) of conditions: temperature gradient, light and shade, humidity variations (a hide is easier to keep moist). That way they can self-regulate a little better.

Perhaps part of the cause is that they would like to and are trying to brumate, I would guess/bet these problems will go away this spring and summer. Air humidity is difficult to get a presise and acurate measurement, your humidity might be lower than you think indoors in the wintertime, regardless of what your gauge is telling you with the E and p readings, so increasing the humidity like Steph suggests will likely be helpful, you may even need to partially cover the enclosure to really increase humidity in the air, increased misting or increased moisture of the substate may not be enough to effectively increase the humidity of the air in the entire room. The humidity will naturally go up in summer as well as their desire to go to sleep will go away.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

Have been working with ornate and luteola for 15 years now. Sounds like hypervitaminosis. Vitamins are a great start. 3 things should help your dilemma.

First, substrate. Sand covered with cypress mulch was best for me. Keep mulch as damp as it comes in bags at the stores or a little drier.

Next,
Lighting. 5.0 or 7.0 uvb at 15 to 20 inches above top of substrate. Avoid spots as they tend to dry the substrate and the eyes.
If kept outdoors, partial sun. Mine have a misting system on for 30 min daily. Humidity here is 20%. Outdoors mine are most active between 60 and 75 degrees. Indoors to 80 degrees. High heat seems to stress them and compromise immune systems.

Lastly, diet. I supplement cantalope and sweet potato into the diet. 40% of meals . Meats should also be offered, leaner is better. Greens can be offered although the ornates are less likely to eat them than my three-toes. Carrots are good in that they aid in trimming down the beak, although weaker turtles may have trouble getting a good bite.

Although not recommended for mammals, I have rubbed neosporin onto the eyes of the sick ornates and seen amazing results. Redness and swelling dissipate and plugs come out.

I have also had endroflaxin (baytril) administered that acted as a booster to get sick turtles to begin feeding again with no complications.

Hope this info helps.
Kr

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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes
http://www.freewebs.com/spreptile/hognose.htm
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc314/lifesciences/?action=view¤t=09-09hognose001.jpg

Great advice! Thanks.

There are many causes for swollen eyelids and each possible cause should be addressed in a case like yours where it seems like you have the husbandry correct.

Since the antibiotics don't seem to be helping, so you can perhaps rule out an infection. That leaves either a dietary or a housing issue. Of course each turtle is different, but look at the behavior of the one turtle that never has the problem and see if she does, or doesn't do something the others do (or don't do). Do they dig into the substrate where their eyes could come into contact with the sand, yet the one does not? Sand can stick to the eyes and cause irritation and the formation of more tears/pus. Did you bring in a new type of bedding recently? Do the others soak more-perhaps trying to raise their hydration? Are the ones with problems eating more or less of vitamin enriched foods? How old is the tank substrate? Is it possible there are snake mites in the bedding that is irritating the eyes?

ECT-you can see where I am going. Every aspect of husbandry from diet, housing and maintenance should be looked at with a critical eye and every shortcoming corrected until you find the root cause. Ornates should be able to overwinter without this problem.

I will mention the cause of a large number of my own ornates getting swollen eyelids-it was due to cool, soggy weather conditions (outdoors). The ornates could not handle the conditions, whereas the Three-toed were fine. If you do not have an accurate, digital thermometer and hydrometer, you may want to invest in one.

Good luck.
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Tess Cook
www.boxturtlesite.info

Hi Tess,

Thanks for your informative and helpful reply. I have been using this observational strategy and have been challenged to find the patterns related to the relapses. Initially I assumed it was due to worms/protozoans because when I changed their water I could smell that familiar parasite smell, (you can even smell this at their coacal area if you get close enough, I learned this from acclimating some wild caught Russian tortoises years ago). Treated with Safeguard and metronidazole and this cleared. The ones that developed the swollen eyes and smelled "wormy" are doing well for the most part, only one of this group has relapsed. Currently, the three affected ones are coming around since I created a humidity hide box, have increased temperature in one part of enclosure, and started a round of Baytril, per my vet. The problem is that for some, the problem recurrs, even in same habitat with essentially the same soaking and burrowing behavior. I have read about the sand problem so one of my enclosures is sand free- sphagnum mixed with cypress bark mulch in a waterland tub. I don't keep snakes or anyother reptiles so mites are out. I have 5.0 Zoomed bulbs 7 inches above substrate, new humidity hide, incandescent bulb over basking area (which they all love), shallow soaking tray (changed daily) I have trained them all to take foods from forceps so I can assure that each gets a proper ration and vitamin supplementation is consistent (dusted superworm 1x per week). They eat mealworms, superworms, earthworms, dandelion greens, occasional chicken necks, an occasional treat of canned cat food and I am going to add frozen mixed vegetables this week per another post. The humidity hide box is new and I am hoping this does the job. So far, everyone appears to be on the mend. I I could figure out how to attach a picture I'd give you a look at the set up and problem.

Thanks so much.

With your thorough observations and diligent work on their habitat, I am going venture to say you will soon find all your turtles doing well and none relapsing Like you, I had a sickly turtle and taking care of that turtle forced me to learn things that I may not have learned as quickly. The only thing I can think of that might have an effect on their eyes is the proximity of the Zoomed light. The usual recommended height is about 12 to 16 inches from the turtles, especially if the lights are new and producing the maximum amount of UVB and UVA rays.

Other suggestions are, don't over medicate or over supplement with Vit A and vary the diet a bit more. My ornates like cooked sweet potatoes, summer and winter squash, mulberries, romaine, sweet red grapes, tomatoes, crickets, June bugs and their larva.

A picture can be added by making a gallery account on Kingsnake and uploading pics there. Then there will be an option of attaching pics to your posts that are located on the picture account.

Tess

Thanks for the encouragement and advice. All are eating well today save one but her eyes are open and she is drinking at will. Thanks for the dietary suggestions, will implement ASAP. I find Ornates have a wider dietary palate than the T.c. carolina I've had in the past. The goal is to breed these guys this spring. Outdoor habitat is set. I will work on the pics. Thanks again!