Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think I need to see a real DOC

If you're going to make statements like that you need to show us a scientific paper PROVING you wasted 3 hours last night.

>>If you're going to make statements like that you need to show us a scientific paper PROVING you wasted 3 hours last night.

Oh, I'm perfecty willing to stipulate that Cychlura wasted 3 hours last night.

I, on the other hand, watched the Olympics, read several interesting papers on various ecological problems in Florida, caught up on emails and various discussion lists, researched various herps currently on the market that I'm interested in, and corrected a few false claims being made in a public forum. Cychlura may have been wasting his time, but I got a lot done!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Here's one with several guotes insinuating just how damaging these cats are and one quote is from a python researcher..

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/06/15/State/Cat_fight_in_the_lap_.shtml
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

LOL!

First -- that's a news article, not a research paper. In fact, I think I cited that same article myself just last night.

As the article specifically states: "Because the hardwoods have been cleared from most of Key Largo for development, the Key Largo wood rat was classified as endangered in 1984, as was a relative, the Key Largo cotton mouse."

These species were declared endangered BECAUSE OF HABITAT DESTRUCTION, NOT because of feral cats -- despite your claim to the contrary.

As the article also specifically states, the cat population in Ocean Reef has been decreased by 75% -- despite your claim that nothing is being done about the cats.

As the article ALSO specifically states, feral cats are trapped when they are in the refuge -- despite your claim that nothing is being done about the cats.

As the article ALSO specifically states, the feral cat count in Ocean Reef at the time the article was written was down to about 500 -- rather than the 1000 or more that you keep claiming in many of your posts.

Keep going, Tom. You're doing a great job of proving my point for me!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Read the other papers as well. Some papers claim 500 and some say 1,000 plus and you know it. Mazzotti himself in one of the links states how serious a threat the cats are. Read the link on my website to an additional paper or report on the cats. This whole stupidness started over you saying that you can't compare the Pythons to cats or something along that line. BOTTOM LINE IS PYTHONS ARE ALWAYS QUOTED AS HAVING EATEN ONE RAT WHILE THE CATS MUNCH AWAY AND THE PUBLIC HEARS NOTHING ABOUT IT EVER. THAT WAS MY POINT THEN AND NOW. I know it's a straw man argument analogy or whatever else you decide to dream about. Do NOT many of the papers, articles, etc estimate the population at 1,000 or more? There also is a HUGE amount of contradictory info about what has been done, what is being done, or if anything is being done. Even the amount of money paid for the cat's health varies depending on the article, paper, etc from about $75,000-$100,000 per year. Which one of these articles, papers, etc is true? I don't know but I do know that the one snake eating the one rat is always publicized as the bad python destoying the endangered Wood Rat and the cat's are never mentioned. Is this a true or a false statement?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

last question on the last 2 sentences on the above post. You've ignored them with your last 2 post. That statement I made is the basis for ALL this crap between you and I. A simple yes or no would be fine...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Read the other papers as well. Some papers claim 500 and some say 1,000 plus and you know it.

Sooo......now you're going to claim that the article you yourself cited is lying about those 500 cats??

Cmon, Tom, don't try to weasel out now. You claimed loudly and confidently that there were many research papers "proving" that the feral cats were "soley" responsible for the decline of the woodrat. Yet you haven't produced a SINGLE paper to back up your claim. And you CAN'T produce those papers, because your claim ISN'T TRUE.

You claimed loudly and confidently that NOTHING was being done about the feral cat problem. Yet I have shown you, and the article you yourself cited shows, that hundreds of thousands of dollars are being spent to decrease the deleterious effects and the overall population of those cats. Again, your claim ISN'T TRUE.

I'm not going to quibble with you about how much money is enough, or about how much reduction in the population is enough. I am satisfied to disprove your false claims, and leave it at that.

As for your claim that "cats are never mentioned" -- hell, Tom, the article you just cited says a lot about cats. All of the articles I cited last night talk about cats. Of COURSE cats are mentioned in *many* discussions about these endangered species....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

my question. Let me rephrase it. Whenever a news article is printed or a television news story given usually the Woodrat is used as an example to show how injurious the pythons are and to leave everyone with the impression that the pythons are directly responsible for the demise of the rat. I'm not talking about past published papers on the cats we're looking at some of which were likely written BEFORE the pythons were here. I'm talking about now. DO ANY OF THESE OR HAVE ANY OF THESE REPORTS SOME GIVEN BY MAZZOTTI WHO HIMSELF STATES IN ONE OF THE SOURCES I PUBLISHED THE LINK TO MENTIONED THE CATS? To date I've heard a gazillion reports about the python eating the rat but NO ONE YET HAS MENTIONED THE CATS. Is that true or false? If it's true why do you think the cats wouldn't be mentioned and the pythons would? It seems you don't want to answer this simple question. Why would you not want to answer? Why hasn't Skip Snow once mentioned the cats when he desrcibes the python eating the rat scenario over and over again? That was my only point and it is a valid one that you don't seem to want to address.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I've already answered this question TWICE, Tom. I even linked to a news article published LAST WEEK which mentioned both cats and pythons. You can keep hammering all you like, but the question has already been answered.

If you want me to comment further on specific articles, then post links to the articles that concern you and I'll be happy to comment on them. But I'm not going to search all over the internet trying to guess which ones you have in mind.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

You still don't get it. I'll try again. WHY DO THE PYTHON RESEARCHERS NEVER MENTION CATS EATING THE RATS WHEN THEY GO ON AN ON ABOUT THE PYTHON EATING ONE? CAN YOU ANSWER THAT?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>You still don't get it. I'll try again. WHY DO THE PYTHON RESEARCHERS NEVER MENTION CATS EATING THE RATS WHEN THEY GO ON AN ON ABOUT THE PYTHON EATING ONE? CAN YOU ANSWER THAT?

Tom, you have never yet shown us that the "python researchers" DON'T mention cats. I don't know whether they do or not, and I don't know the specific papers that have offended you.

I'll say it again -- if you'll provide links to the specific papers that you say "never mention cats", then I'll be happy to take a look at them and comment further.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The problem is that very few people will ever bother doing as much research as perhaps you or Tom will do. They rely on (read: are simply spoon fed) embarrassingly sensational "journalism" to shape their opinion. Exclude cats/habitat destruction/skunk apes out of enough mainstream reporting and the general public will be none the wiser. This feeds into the general distaste for our (my) hobby and others' profession/s. When we subsequently look for support, it will be difficult to shift the mindset.

>>The problem is that very few people will ever bother doing as much research as perhaps you or Tom will do. They rely on (read: are simply spoon fed) embarrassingly sensational "journalism" to shape their opinion. Exclude cats/habitat destruction/skunk apes out of enough mainstream reporting and the general public will be none the wiser. This feeds into the general distaste for our (my) hobby and others' profession/s. When we subsequently look for support, it will be difficult to shift the mindset.

I agree with you there. Too many people believe what they are told -- and that includes claims on BOTH sides of the argument!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Here's a paper that says there are a 1,000 cats. I'm technologically retarded and not to good with computers but I am tenacious. I stated what I read and I will find or get my girlfriend who is MUCH younger than me and a lot better with computers to look. Here's the paper thats says there's a 1,000 cats. You know what I'm saying is true just as you say I lied about where I read there was a 1,000 cats. You just are nitpicky and try to change the thoughts and then try to weasel out when you get put in the position you try to put others in.

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/arus18jlanduseenvtll441.htm
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Keep trying, Tom.

The paper you just cited was published in spring 2003, which means
that the data was probaby gathered in 2002. OTOH, the article you cited earlier was published in June 2003, which means that its data was probably more current. Since the population was decreased by 75%, it is reasonable to think that each number was correct **at the time the data was gathered**. But when you're making CLAIMS about those numbers, it is more honest to use the most current numbers available -- and that appears to be 500, not 1000.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I never said the date in my post. That's a straw man argument....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>I never said the date in my post. That's a straw man argument....

Phhhhht. You have said many times that there **ARE** 1000 cats in Ocean Reef. Not that there WERE 1000 cats at some point in time.

Keep trying, Tom. You'll get to the truth eventually.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I'm technologically retarded and not to good with computers but I am tenacious.

>wink<

Tom, we still love you.

We don't care if you know how to format a hard drive or even what that means. Your charm is in your cheerful demeanor! Beside you are a snappy dresser too! LOL

>/wink
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

I'm not sure about any of what that means but my wardrobe. Since I work with critters all day that delight in tearing my clothes up I rarely wear tuxedo's. You sound as if you know me and if you do you also realize I never quit, never back up, and fight to the death for anything I truly believe in. Are you that passonate about life? I still am after all these years. Not sure of the "wink" business either......
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom please accept my apologies. That was meant to lighten the atmosphere with a smarmy little bit of wit.

Clearly you did not get it. I apologize for this.

My name is Scott Solar. We have done a little business here and there for nearly 30 years. This explains why you don't know me. You have never done me anything but good business, so I felt comfortable making that post.

>>I'm not sure about any of what that means but my wardrobe. Since I work with critters all day that delight in tearing my clothes up I rarely wear tuxedo's.

All herpers are rarely well dressed. Me to! The "snappy dresser" comment was tongue in cheek!

>>You sound as if you know me and if you do you also realize I never quit, never back up, and fight to the death for anything I truly believe in. Are you that passonate about life?

yes, thanks for asking. In fact you taught me much of this.

> I still am after all these years. Not sure of the "wink" business either......

It was my little hint that I was simply kidding around.

Tom please accept my sincere apologies for fooling around if you considered it innapropriate. It was not my intent to do anything but raise a grin on your face.

Take it easy! Take it any way you can!
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Speaking of snappy clothes -- Now that I have moved onto a farm, one of my favorite sayings is this: "Old farmers never die, they just smell that way".

It is ohhhhhhhhhh so true! LOL.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Scott it's my fault because I saw the Amazon and as I read it as I was heading out the door assumed you were AmazonDoc and now that I see the AmazonReptile it's even funnier. Actually I thought it was humerous when I thought it was Amazon Doc even..No problems and thank you...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I just was wondering how AmazonDoc knew me and her WINKING AT ME WAS FAR MORE FRIGHTENING THAN A CLOSE CALL WITH A KING COBRA...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Good one Tom! I would much rather get a wink from a king cobra as well! LOL!!!
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steve

>>I just was wondering how AmazonDoc knew me and her WINKING AT ME WAS FAR MORE FRIGHTENING THAN A CLOSE CALL WITH A KING COBRA...
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>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

OK, now that is hilarious!

gtg
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

It's actually true and that's even funnier...This is my buddy Albert and he has a far better personality. When he gets tired of me he tries to bite me but doesn't nitpick me to death..LOL

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>It's actually true and that's even funnier...This is my buddy Albert and he has a far better personality. When he gets tired of me he tries to bite me but doesn't nitpick me to death..LOL
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steve

Hey...I remember helping you bag that 15' King cobra years ago when you were in Fort Myers...after reading this thread with AmazonDoc...lets go bag some more cobras!!LOL

Dan

I've been to Tom's place. The wardrobe there is shorts and T-shirt. And maybe leather gloves during green iguana breeding seaon. (inside joke) The only thing south of Tom is the ENP.

Here's another paper saying they are a serious threat to the rat's...

http://www.law.ufl.edu/conservation/pdf/feralcat.pdf

Further down in the Keys several of the papers have stated that the Marsh rabbit living there is dissapearing fast because of the cats and some other factors but most the cats...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom -- nobody has claimed that the feral cats don't kill any rats or mice. But you DID claim that the feral cats were "soley" responsible for the rodents' decline, and that is simply not true.

The truth is that HABITAT DESTRUCTION caused the decline of these endangered rodents. Predators like dogs, raccoons, black rats, cats, and pythons are ADDING to the problem -- but they did not CAUSE it.

The truth is also that actions ARE being taken to control the feral cat population.

Now -- please stop wasting everyone's time, or at least let's see those research papers that you claimed "proved" that the cats were "soley" responsible for the rodents' problems.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

and answer my question...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>and answer my question...thanks

I already did, Tom. Of COURSE articles mention cats. The articles you cited yourself mention cats. The articles I cited mention cats. Jeeez.....

Here's a news article from just last week that discusses both pythons and cats:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/story/1471755.html

From that article: " Development, the most prevalent threat to wildlife in Florida, certainly played a role in reducing the rat's prime habitat, but its most recent rapid decline, starting around 1995, happened with much of its remaining habitat under state and federal protection. The dire drop remains somewhat of a puzzle to scientists. Tracking the lab rats also might help sort out threats, including diseases associated with a round-worm found in raccoon feces, as well as Key Largo's problematic population of feral cats and Burmese pythons. Rat remains have been found in the guts of at least two captured snakes. "
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>
>>The truth is that HABITAT DESTRUCTION caused the decline of these endangered rodents. Predators like dogs, raccoons, black rats, cats, and pythons are ADDING to the problem -- but they did not CAUSE it.

I understand why one would complain about dogs, cats, pythons and rats. But now we lump a NATIVE SPECIES in too? RACCOONS! Does this argue for the extinction of coons so we can protect wood rats? Do coons even kill woodrats? I'll bet woodrats also have nematodes in their gut. If this is true we need to eradicate all other species hosting this nematode so we can save the woodrat.

Get in your wayback machine and visit key west 1000 years ago. If raccoons are preying on woodrats now, they were doing it then. So now we argue over natural processes.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Ehhh, maybe...I would think, just like how the coon population has been helped by habitat fragmentation and they are now MORE of a threat to nesting neotropical songbirds, (along with crows & blue jays, who now have "easy access" to nests that would have otherwise been in dense brush/woodland, and out of their "foraging plan" there is a good chance they are more of a threat NOW to the native rats then they were before the habitat was so completely disturbed and altered.

Native species can become a threat to other native species when a habitat is made more significantly livable for one then the other.

Constantly putting Tom's spelling error "soley" makes you appear to be less of a person, picky, and demeaning. If that's the image you wish to project, then so be it.

As for the marsh rabbits, once again we have this:

"Habitat destruction and fragmentation associated with residential and commercial construction activities over the past 20 years is responsible for the Lower Keys marsh rabbit's endangered status."

http://www.fws.gov/southeast/vbpdfs/species/mammals/lkmr.pdf

HABITAT DESTRUCTION, NOT feral cats, caused their disappearance.

Of course, feral cats -- along with other predators such as dogs, raccoons, oppossums, and even fire ants -- are ADDING to the problem. But they are not the CAUSE of the problem, despite your many claims to the contrary.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I'm convinced it's the pythons. You've won me over. I believe the press and you...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom you are waisting your energy amazon is just on here to prevoke and argue about any detail she can while not offering up anything constructive. She does not care if rules are effective or not as long "something" is being done to help her sleep well at night.
Rob

I just think its a stupid phrase.....That is all
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

N/P

>>I just think its a stupid phrase.....

Your thoughts aside, actually it is not silly at all. It is a very effective description of a specific argumentative situation. Kinda points out a problem as effectively as a laser.

For more information go here.

Kind Regards.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Who's side are you on anyway?

Did Tom get your panties in a wad?

Tom lives down there and comutes in that entire area. And I know exactly where he lives because I have been to his house. He sees first hand because he goes out and sees for himself. Those cats are being fed by tax payer money, and most tax payers don't even know it. That is bull crap. Those cats do more damage then those burms will ever do. In fact, out of all the animals that you listed as threats to the native wildlife, cats are the worst ones.

I say, leave Tom alone. He knows more then you ever will.