Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The ENP is so polluted that animals can't help but die. Read some of these articals. The links should all be in blue. Most people don't even pay attention to this stuff. But if native wildlife can't have a healthy envirnment, how can they survive?

Everglades Pollution Case Heads To Court
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/southflorida/news/pollution2004.html

I can't believe this stuff, I thought the burms were killing everything.

Pollution Still Threatens Everglades

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/FISH/southflorida/news/still2007.html

REDUCED RUNOFF FROM FARMS, YARDS
SLOWS SPREAD OF CATTAILS IN EVERGLADES

http://www.everglades.org/cattails.html

Pollution Poses Growing Threat To Everglades

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/17/us/pollution-poses-growing-threat-to-everglades.html?pagewanted=1

Here is where the state is delaying water cleanup, very recent.

Fla.: Delay Everglades pollution crackdown

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/12/03/Fla-Delay-Everglades-pollution-crackdown/UPI-51921259879246/

I know what is causing all of the pollution, IT'S BURM POOP.

Federal Judge Orders State to Reduce Pollution into Everglades

http://www.earthjustice.org/news/press/005/federal_judge_orders_state_to_reduce_pollution_into_everglades.html

Constitutional Amendment, Everglades Water Pollution

http://myfloridalegal.com/ago.nsf/Opinions/9083F168C353A721852563F600673D09

Florida Everglades

http://www.whoseflorida.com/everglades.htm

Time Magazine writer discusses Everglades pollution, restoration This is recent

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20091104/articles/911041019?Title=Time-Magazine-writer-discusses-Everglades-pollution-restoration

Florida Everglades
4. What types of environmental threats does the region face?

Everglades National Park, including Florida Bay, is seriously threatened by the water management practices of the Army Corps of Engineers and the South Florida Water Management District. Under the current regime, western portions of the Park experience harmful, prolonged periods of inundation while eastern portions of the Park are too dry. Because of a disruption in freshwater flows, Florida Bay, the nursery ground for a number of valuable commercial species, is experiencing massive algae blooms and a general decline in productivity.

http://www.nrdc.org/water/conservation/qever.asp

Toxic Mercury at home in the Florida Everglades

http://www.floridaenvironment.com/programs/fe00313.htm

This stuff can go on forever. Fact is, man is to blame for all of the problems with the ENP, not the burms. I thought one of the links talked about the irigation canals. I have walked many of the irrigation canals in South Florida. I can tell you that these canals run North and South, and East and West. They run in those directions for miles and miles, and I mean miles. I am sure all the canals combined would be hundreds if not thousnads of miles when added up. These canals were put in to drain the water so the land could be built on.

Burms are not the problem, it's all the toxin's, loss of habitat, and plain ol human stupidity.

It's a real shame that the reptile community is being blamed for the loss of wildlife. What's next, dog's and cat's being blaimed for global warming?

"I can't believe this stuff, I thought the burms were killing everything."

The burms do have some negative impact on the ecosystem, but finding a non-biased report maybe difficult. My favorite review of this is from Barker and Barker.

http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/PP-and-Pythons_BarkerBarker.pdf

"There is one paper that estimates the cost of Burmese
pythons to Florida. Smith et al. (2007) estimated that
one Burmese python feeding in the Everglades did
wildlife damage ranging from $83,992.00 annually up
to $6 million in their worst case scenario. Extending
their worst case scenario, we figure that a population
of Burmese pythons estimated at 30,000 animals then
could “cost” Florida $180 billion in annual wildlife
losses, that being 25% of Florida’s annual GDP. If this
is a true estimate of value, then the total value of the
wildlife in South Florida alone must far exceed the
GDP of the nation, literally tens of trillions of dollars.
Frankly we are embarrassed that persons identifying
themselves as scientists would sign their names to a
paper containing such a ridiculous estimate. We would
argue that that it is equally likely that Burmese
pythons have a net positive effect on the South Florida
ecosystem. A proper evaluation, as is typically done
for laws based on the PP would investigate all
alternatives to the proposed law."

The burms and other exotic reptiles are a MINOR problem to the glades when compared to pollution and the diverting of vital water resources to condo farms and suburbs!

The burms have been and continue to be a very convenient distraction for politicians like Nelson and the Water Management District, who want to delay and derail true Everglades restoration at all costs!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

It is all about draining, channeling, and redirecting water...and about the pesticides and fertilizers dumped in by economic/agricultural development. The amount of toxic hydrocarbons washed off roadways is huge, and never even mentioned.
It's that old political shell game. Appear to be doing something, when your really not. Burms are such an easy target.
Shame on our politicians and shame on the media.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I want to share this personal story, regarding my previous experience with Florida development.
I couldn't have been more than 13 when we were on vacation in Florida. I believe it was Deerfield Beach.
There was a curbed road that paralleled the beach. On the landward side there was a vacant lot. A nest of baby Loggerheads had hatched out from that lot the night previous and could not make it up the curb on their way to the sea. They were ALL dead. Fried in the sun. A few run over. I cried. Nobody gave a Damn.
This was in 1965 or 66.
Sometimes I just plain hate Humanity.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE GLADES IS UNATURAL WATER FLOW. Two roads the TamiAmi Trail and Alligator Alley act as two HUGE dikes crossing right across the Glades with only small bridges and canals allowing the water to flow south as it historically did. It was changed from the Pay-ha-okee or what we call the River of Grass to a series of fast moving canals. Water flow used to flow south at about a mile or so per day with the average depth at 6"-12". Add in the channelization of the Caloosahatchee River, the Hillsboro Canal, and other diversion canals flowing into the Gulf Of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean has made Florida Bay bloom with algae with disasterous effects on the ecosystem. Then throw in the Hoover Dike around Lake Okeechobee coupled with the channelization of the Kissimmie River feeding into Lake Okeechobee from the north and you have a disaster that today we call the Everglades. I almost forgot about BIG SUGAR just south of the lake taking all the excessive nutrients south in the water flow. Some of these things you may not fully understand the how's and why's but I'm a slow typist and it would take pages to explain when, why, and how this adversly affects the Everglades. If you research these terms I gave you it will become much clearer to you. To make a long story short the sheet flow is almost destroyed and fresh water is not in sufficient quantity to wash out Floriday Bay making the Glades somewhat sterile...That's a lot of history going back over 100 years. The villians are Government Organizations. Early on it was the Army Corps of Engineers and later S W Florida Water Management [not very well managed]. The government has been on a mission to drain and destroy the Glades since the late 1800"s. Other factors involving plants like Melaleauca, Cassurina, etc that were deliberately introduced by the government as well. I'll shut up for now BUT THERE IS SO MUCH MORE...Sorry for the rant...Thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

The anti-snake Hype is almost too much. Detrimental distraction from the real problems, and much easier to attack. We have become the scape goat. What kind of society will be around for our grandchildrens grandchildren---scary
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steve

I started this thread because this is the stuff we just don't here about. All we hear about is that the burms are killing all of the native animals. That just isn't true.

I have been out in Louisana, and out that way. They have highways that are bridges over their ecosystems, like swamps, that run for miles and miles. Bridges don't disrupt the natural flow of things the way mother nature intended them to be.

Look at Aligator Alley. Look at all the dirt that was brought in to build it up. And those tiny bridges every so often are a joke. When you alter an ecosystem it is no longer the way mother nature created it, therefore it will not function the way it was suppose to.

Tom, you have seen first hand, a lot of the things that go on, for one you live in the Everglades, or if not, right on the edge. Those pythons in reality aren't doing much harm at all. The pythons do eat animals, but they are being eaten also. So they take, and they add to the food chain.

All the media does is slams the pythons and reptile owners for the destruction of the ENP and we all know, that simply isn't true. I don't believe the ENP can even be restored at this point, there has been too much damage, and that damage was caused by humans and not burms or any other animal.

For those of you that don't understand about the canals, picture a piece of graph paper. The lines on the graph paper are the canals. That is what the land would look like from a plane.

When you look at the ENP, people say, the burms don't belong there. Well, that might be true, but what about all of the other stuff that doesn't belong there. Those burms are nothing compaired to what the real issues should be.

I wonder if there is any way we can use this information in our strategy against the snake ban. Is there a way to get tv shows to show this kind of stuff?

Great discussion. One more (minor) point is that while it might be politically incorrect to ask the question, why do so many conclude that there is a "problem" at all with the burms in the Everglades? We all know how junky the science is behind the python hysteria, yet at the same time a lot of us seem to believe there is an environmental problem. Maybe there is, but I've been following this issue for a while now, and I've not seen any real evidence (a couple hand-picked anecdotes is not evidence), mostly assumption that "non-native" = "invasive" = "injurious".

Burms are non native, that is a fact. Invasive, they are not. They can't go any further North then they are now. They just can't take the cold. Here in Florida we just had one of the worst winters in the last 120 years, or at least the part I live in which is just North of Tampa. And when I say 120 years, it is because records only go back to 1890. How can something be considered invasive if it can only survive in a tiny section of the country. The ENP might be big, but in relation the the U.S. and even the entire North America, it is tiny.

every now and then they find one somewhere else. But that doesn't mean it would make it through a winter. I am sure pythons have been found in northern states. But that doesn't mean they lived through a winter. I can remember last winter or the one before where someone found a frozen boa up north. Frozen, well yeah, that can't possibly survive a winter.

If something can only survive in a tiny pocket it can't be called invasive. What all of this boils down to is the way the media portrays it all. All we have been asking for is the truth. I don't think we will ever see that. The burms really aren't hurting anything, but you will never hear that on the news.

>>If something can only survive in a tiny pocket it can't be called invasive. What all of this boils down to is the way the media portrays it all. All we have been asking for is the truth. I don't think we will ever see that. The burms really aren't hurting anything, but you will never hear that on the news.

I agree with you, my point is that there are a lot of people/organizations on "our side" that believe there IS a problem, and/or they support"solutions" like python hunts and bounties. Yet many of them also (correctly) criticize the crap science behind it all. To me, that seems very inconsistent. Maybe it's good strategy for us to be politically correct, but I'm not sure agreeing with the junk scientists is a good strategy either.

I don't agree with the junk science, but I am all for the burm hunts. It shows we want to help. If the burm hunts continue it can keep the burms numbers down. The burms are there to stay, there is nothing in the world that will get rid of all of them. But I think it is in our favor to support the hunts. The cold weather this winter took a toll on a lot of the burms. For some strange reason that information is being with held, I wonder why.

First how can anyone say an animal must be able to flourish in the entire country to be considered invasive? They have made a home out of the entire range they are adapted to live in and done it very quickly. We all know that the cold this winter hurt their numbers badly. But we also know that a winter this cold has never happened before and will more than likely not happen again for quite some time. With that said, it is logical to think they will spread further north, perhaps up to the Sarasota level as I've personally caught Burms that were pet releases sunning themselves on Feb days when the temp at night was getting down to the 30's and daytime highs in the 60's and these animals did quite well in captivity.

Also, burms are not native to the area so any animal they consume is taking away a resource for the environment and that is a problem. Regardless of whether or not a burm is eaten by a gator, if a burm eats a gator that is a problem. I do not think there should be a ban of these animals but you people have got to realize there is a problem with them being there. I understand that there are bigger problems with the glades but that has nothing to do with this ban, the burms do though. We must stand together and quit nit picking over all the problems and thinking we will just go to congress and say well the dikes and alligator ally and Tamaiami Trail and Big Sugar are the problems so please leave our snakes alone. THEY WILL NOT!!!!! The federal government wants to ban these snakes and they are spending money to get the "research" done so that they can achieve their goal. What Reptile association or Pet association that is funded by our money has solicited (sp) any scientists to actually go there and study the impact of the burms or the suitability of expansion of their range? NONE HAVE!!!! We keep yelling about wanting to get results of THEIR research but are not doing any ourselves. I am a member of PIJAC and USARK but will not renew because of this. We need real world research not dinners with congressmen and photo shoots with the same politicians over and over. I guarantee that PETA or HSUS has contributed funds to the Everglades Restoration and in doing so they get to speak in congressional hearings related to Burmese pythons. Why do they get to? Are they python experts? No but they pay for the oppertunity to speak. They put commercials all over the ty and internet so people have no choice but to see their message, or at least they one the want portrayed. When have you seen a commercial about save our pythons? We have alot of people who have donated $20-100 and that can do alot, but we need step up further. I figure I make about 1/1000th of what some of the big guys do off my animals and because of this, I will donate $1 for every $1000 that a large commercial breeder donates to USARK for a nationwide commercial fund (USARK can let me know which breeder I must match funds with and proof of donation must be provided) and challenge everyone else to do the same. WE MUST GET OUR VOICE OUT THERE!!!! Like I said earlier, this forum bickering is useless. We do not have the famous celebs donating $100,000's as we are not the PC group. So we must do this ourselves.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I agree with much of what you've said especially about the money part. As far as the science part goes I spent several hours on Sat speaking to Dr. Elliot Jacobson on a paper he's presenting at the upcoming All Florida Herp Conference about the Python problem. I've also reviewed at least part of the written version that will hopefully be published and this info is REAL SCIENCE not junk science. I urge everyone to attend this conference that rivals any herp conference in the world in terms of GOOD research on various herps both here and abroad. The point I'm making is that real research has and is being done by very distinguished scientist. Many of these are fully aware of the shortcomings of earlier politically motivated papers that are full of flaws and inaccuracies...Thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

That is good to know, Tom. I am sure people will take Dr. Jacobson's word over anybody's since he is one of the top Herpotologists in the world.

is the conference being held? Thanks.

It's in Gainesville, Fl on March 27th...thanks and I believe this is the 33rd consecutive Herp Conference held there. It's one of the best in the world and includes speakers from all walks of life from world renowned scientist like Dr Jacobson to someone like me [I've spoke at several in years past]. There's something for everyone. Dr Archie Carr [now deceased] and Dr Walter Auffenburg have spoken there many times. I distinctly remember the presentation by Dr Auffenburg after his work on Komodo Dragons in the 1970's..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>
>>Also, burms are not native to the area so any animal they consume is taking away a resource for the environment and that is a problem.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. This is way too much of a simplification. For example, if the most invasive species in the history of the world (Homo sapiens) has wiped out most/all of the predators of rats, mice and other animals we consider pests, then the burms might actually be beneficial to us.

What's interesting to me is that we (Homo sapiens) somehow exempt ourselves from all these concepts of invasiveness, non-nativeness and injurious.

I think the burms are just fine. The aligators are now being hunted because there are too many of them. The burms will help keep the gators in check, and people will help keep the burms in check. One big happy family. Burms could never thrive is Sarasota. It gets too cold there in the winter, not just this winter, but every winter. There is a new sheriff in the ENP, and his name is Sheriff Burm.

guarantee that PETA or HSUS has contributed funds to the Everglades Restoration and in doing so they get to speak in congressional hearings related to Burmese pythons. Why do they get to? Are they python experts? No but they pay for the oppertunity to speak. They put commercials all over the ty and internet so people have no choice but to see their message, or at least they one the want portrayed.

More then anything, I think the whole pet trade, mammals, fish, birds has to start banning together and showing up for each other. It will take a strong showing from all the little guys (theres no such thing as a big reptile business by corporate standards) ,

Groups such as Peta and the HSUS have private people like Nancy Alexander over in West Palm that by themselves drop millions in the donation box. There's no one like that in the reptile biz. As a whole the exotic pet trade can bring a good bit to the table, I think enough to fight back against anything, but if segregated ......................the research and science stuff ultimately wont amount to much, you have to try and debunk the other guys claims but this usually leads to a ping pong match of yes they can, no they cant and like I said before this isn't math where you can prove the other guys numbers don't add up, so..........................

PETA the HSUS, all the mainstream conservation groups are all BIG business's, well connected highly structured and well budgeted, they have done all the things the exotic animal trade has not in terms of business success and structured growth. Another thing they do is when a situation (burms in the glades as an example) pops up, they put the in fighting aside and back each other up.

Ive said it before, the reptile trade has not seen anything in terms of what these groups could do if they decide to go all out.

When it comes to PIJAC and Usark ,

PIJAC has been around 40 years and should be the ones to bring the big players of the pet trade out, but why should Nestlé Purina bring their enormous resources and clout to the table on behalf of the reptile trade? What would be in it for them? Why would Petco or Petsmart fight tooth and nail for the reptile trade? The reason these corporations are where their at is because,

They hire retail professionals with strong track records of success in various fields. The people sitting on the boards of these huge players in the pet trade....are the ones who call the corporate shots and their going to back the horse that has the best shot at helping the company. They don't hire animal lovers for their board of directors, they couldn't care less about "pets," its about moving product, where is the money being made? Go into any big chain and look at how much space is devoted to what, that will tell the story of how that business butters it bread.That is where the companys vested interest is and where their main concerns are going to be. The big chains have track record of going along with the activist, not to mention money making contracts. The companys dont like the AR groups and their definitely not scared of them but at the end of the day they work with them because its smart buisness. So I don't expect these pet heavy weights to do anything more then hedge their bets if things get scary. I`ll say it again the whole exotic pet trade needs to start showing up for each other, the exotic pet trade needs to start doing smart buisness.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

More then anything, I think the whole pet trade, mammals, fish, birds has to start banning together and showing up for each other

I think we could go even further and reach out to farmers and hunters and fisherman as well. peta is after us all. we are all in the same boat. An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I think we could go even further and reach out to farmers and hunters and fisherman as well. peta is after us all. we are all in the same boat. An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I agree but, business makes for strange bedmates. It would be nice and Ive already made the suggestion a long time ago, how great it would be if the commercial fishing industry and cattle farmers would step up to the plate on the pet trades behalf and the trade could return the favor but, just like the big pet chains these huge industry's have more to gain by playing ball with the major activist groups then by fighting with them. Not long ago here in Florida the OLD Amblyomma tick scare once again raised its head (based on highly flawed science) the cattle farmers certainly showed no love for the trade and backed the HSUS.

A company like Nestlé Purina is PART of the farm trade, they are also part of so many other things from everyready batteries to breakfast cereal, professional sports, that's the kind of player the trade really needs to have on board, but what can the trade offer in return? Why should they back exotic owners? I still think the most realistic approach is to at least try and get pet owners and the entire exotic industry on the same page first then build from there, To this point that looks to be impossible and if things get heavy and the activist groups really start putting the peddle down this disjointed approach the industry has taken in the past will be recipe for major disaster,

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Previously, when I suggested the Burms might not be injurious, Mike Rochford had quite a reaction to that comment. Seemed to demonstrate a predisposition to conclusions not yet proven.
Innocent until proven guilty...contempt prior to investigation is the sign of a closed mind.
I'm not exactly sure of his position, but isn't he a biologist studying the situation? Doesn't that call his unbiased credibility into question?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Well to give you an example of what I think about Mike Rochford, The Kingsnake mods removed my last post where I expressed my opinion of him. So lets just say, I don't think I should tell you what I think of Mike Rochford.

There was a time when tapirs and camels flourished here. Things change and how idiotic would it be to put camels and tapirs back in the Everglades today? They do belong there. For some reason they died off. If you put them back now, they would die off again. When do you pick a single frame from the motion picture that is history and say this is how we want it to be and stay? Do we want to go back to when the everglades was filled with alligators, water moccasins and rattlesnakes and so many birds that when in flight it would shade the sun? Would that make you happy? Maybe it would, but you can’t have one thousanth of the birds you used to and have everything else back the way it was. You can’t say let’s have some of the alligators but none of the rattlesnakes and maybe a few moccasins but those flocks of birds poop on our cars, so no, and maybe more spoonbills but not so many eagles, well maybe some eagles, but then we need more rabbits again and they dig up the golf course, but then maybe a few rattlesnakes to balance the rabbits, or maybe, didn’t we use to have some wolves? You can’t do any of that. Here’s the big solution- acceptance. Accept what you have and stop crying oh how it use to be in the good old days. You can keep going back and back and back to saber tooth tigers and giant armidillos. When was it perfect? Never. Or always, including today. Take your pick. I pick it is perfect always and today. Accept that it is fleeting and enjoy it at every step along the way. Or just admit you never did like it no matter what it looked like and you don’t like it now either. Unfortunately, a lot of the so called preservationists, conservationists and animal rights people fall into that last group. They never really liked it out there, ver. They want it developed. They aren’t so concerned about turning you against pythons, they want to turn you off to protecting the everglades, that it is ruined and not worth protecting. Next they will hit you with the dollars being spent, which are being used to destroy it faster right now for the coming propaganda campaign. They want the land! I want it preserved as a wilderness area, I don't care what lives there in the past, present or future. That IS the everglades.

Please read this stuff

>>Unfortunately, a lot of the so called preservationists, conservationists and animal rights people fall into that last group. They never really liked it out there, ver. They want it developed.

Okay, I'll go ahead and say it:

That is just unadulterated BULLSH!T.

Show me a preservationist, conservationist, or ARist who wants to develop the glades. Show me even one.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I don't think anyone would publically say they would like to develop it but believe me plenty here think it. The problem with much of these areas like Picayune is that there are little to no buffer zones. Many or most National Parks in S. E. Asia in particularly India have buffer zones around the parks and "core areas" where no one is allowed.In Collier co. near Picajune and the Fl. Panther National Wildlife Refuge they are now building Ava Maria University that is actually a small city situated on the edge of the heart of much needed habitat for our big mammals. The ENP doesn't have the best habitat for the mammals but the northern areas do and development is progressing right up to the borders. It is truly a shame that officials would allow such a huge development to buffer such important wildlife habitat as this...I think that is what UPSCALE meant...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, if that's what he meant, then he spoke extremely imprecisely. I doubt you'd find any conservationist (defined as mainstream groups involved in Everglades restoration-NAS, NWF, regional Florida groups etc)who either says or thinks that the gladees should be developed, or that development should extend so close to its borders. We've been fighting for decades for just the opposite!

AR groups-who KNOWS what those wackos are thinking from one minute to the next?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I really meant PRIVATE developers linked with politicians to be more precise for my part. These lg. developments like Ava Maria wil increase traffic who knows how much through these areas that once had a minimum of traffic. While I know that higher education facilities are vital I don't understand why this had to be built in the area it is being built in. This is going to have long term very harmful effects on this entire region which is of vital importance to wildlife. Many people who already have lot's of money would have no qualms at developing now protected areas if they could. It's always about money and as I've grown older and seen the destruction of Florida in my lifetime I feel like I'm living a Carl Hiasson novel...LOL...Where is "SKINK" when you need him...If you're an avid reader you'll understand this...I'm hoping that's what UPSCALE actually meant anyway
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

They changed the water flow and the exotic Cassurina and Brazilian Peppers created bioniches that provided food and shelter for a lot of wildlife including herps [especially the Cassurina]. Now their on a campaign of scorched earth policies with the destruction of these plants that force the animals to move but with NO place to go...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I can believe that. Once the Gene is out of the bottle you just can't go back...those idealistic good intentions do have unintended consequences.
Please do allow the animals that have been able to adapt and survive to stay.
There is a certain mentality among people...those that just aren't happy, no matter what. Seems they've got to find fault, no matter what. Always taking inventory of others, but never themselves. The "this could be better" crowd. Just worry about yourself, for a change. Of course, all that introspection could be painful, so it is avoided. Gotta have a "cause".
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Which brings us back to the basic issue, which the powers that be in S. Florida are doing their best to distract us from-restoring the sheet flow (to the greatest extent possible) and diverting sufficient water back to the glades. Then native species will get a leg up (since this, after all, is the environment they are adapted to and evolved in), and there will be little need for "removal" programs.

Of course this is the course that Nelson, his colleagues in Florida politics, the developers, and the South Florida Water Management District ALL wish to avoid at all costs.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Fifty years ago MOST of the Glades were devoid of Cattails. Now the nutrient rich water that flows south due to the channelization of the Kissimie River and then flowing through the sugar cane areas have made Cattails one of the domininate plants while out competing the used to be dominate Sawgrass. The sheetflow needs to be restored as much as possible but if you really look at the obstacles in the way I don't see how it will ever be possible. It saddens me that my home state I love so much has changed so much in the last 50 years. Some species have increased in number since I was a kid [Panthers & Black Bears for instance] but they have no way to expand as there are NO wildlife corriders. We are way OT and I apologize but I really love the Glades and hope that the people with the power will make good decisions in the future..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I agree...we don't have a problem just because someone says "we have a problem." I hate to hurt the purist hearts...but 500 years from now the entire earth will be different...and burmese pythons in the ENP won't be an issue...wheter they exist there or not. As Reinhold Niebuhr wrote..."God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference."

Dan

Actually there is a movement out there that would like to put camels elephants rhinos, and large cats and God-knows -what else right smack dab in the middle of buster lime's backyard (the guy afraid of being attacked by such animals.). There was an article about it a few years back in National Geographic. Don't quote me on it but I almost think Ted Turner may be part of it.
It is an obviously controversial idea but from the standpoint of large carnivorous mammalian predators there is some validity to it. Since we have eradicated wolves from the majority of the lower 48 states coyotes have moved in and replaced them as nature abhors a vacuum. They are less fearful of man than wolves and more prone to inhabiting urban environments and much more of a potential problem in clashes with humans. They are harder to eradicate than wolves which means it is more difficult to manage their populations. They also have a tendency to carrie rabies at a higher percentage rate than wolves and last but not least they are not as effective as predators on deer populations as are wolves and big cats.
Lack of predators on deer has had not only a devastating effect on ecosystems given that deer alter the natural flora of their environment by eating it to death but they now have a problem with a brain wasting disease that would benefit by having predators that could weed out the sick animals.
Yes btw there was a species of wolf here in Fl. and the south east it was the red wolf (canis rufus) although there is currently controversy as to whether it is actually a legitimate species or actually a hybrid between coyotes and grey wolves. Given the typical behavior between the two species (coyote populations were reduced by 40% in yellowstone national park after the reintroduction of wolves.) I am a bit doubtful of that theory. However red wolves and coyotes do readily hybridize. There is however a close genetic link between coyotes red wolves and the now extinct dire wolf which were all supposedly here before the arrival of the grey wolf. That last fact alone would throw the hybrid theory imo but I'm not a scientist so what do I know.

I remember when they were catching a few Texas puma to introduce to the everglades as geneticly the closest related species.The florda is now the texorda puma.It is no longer pure.Texas puma are a small breed around 100 pounds.I saw a dakota puma that was 265 pounds and it is a different animal,tho it looks the same.The fact that every place I collected snakes when I was a kid is now a houseing district and those genes are long gone bothers me.Change is at hand.The planet earth is a changing biome and will continue to do so.I know where there populations of non native animals that I will never tell the location of.People make to much out of this.Florida is a tropical sub tropical habitat that is changing from man more than any animal could ever do.We have wild snow monkeys in texas,the valley is full of parrots that migrated north after large forest fires in mexico.These are tourist attractions now exploited by man.There is no effort to distroy these animals.At one time there was a group that decided to rid us of the monkeys but they are now a state treasure illegal to harm.We have black buck, auadad fallow deer and many other hoofed stock wild in the state emus and pheasant as well.All are now animals of the state.The list of animals that spread out is amazeing all from man.Every city in texas now has a population of mediterainian geckos .The fact is the world changes and if an animal is doing well we should consider it as a viable population to be exploited for good.The burm is an example of a success story by darwin evolution.Norman stated that what the majority want is to develop the glades.How much true natural habitat is left in florida is there a place that has no introduced species.Norman was raised in florida,Tom calls it his home state .I would be willing to bet that it is not the same place that it was even 20 years ago.The pbs special Tom helped on about burms had the real answer.The burms are good for tourisum .I rambled a bit but I think this is what is called a slide of hand.Look over here while I work on my true agenda over there.For some reason the herp hobby is being attacked on all fronts and as well from behind.With all the hubub I can not help but think that we are not the true agenda just part of a master plan to control us and our lives.I may be wrong but we will see in a couple of more years when keeping a snake of any kind is a felony .This is truly scarieng me as I am sure that this is a diversion tactic .
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Archie Bottoms

As far as I know the true Florida Panther is extinct. They are all crosses with the one from Texas. The burms are there to stay. There is just no way to get rid of them and there never will be. What the state should do is make it a tourist attraction and turn a negative into a positive. I am not sur if the old saying, if you can't beat them, join them applies here. If not, if you can't beat them, then make money fron them, should. People have shown a lot of interest in seeing the burms. They could create more jobs, attract more tourist, and everyone wins. It's time to go with the flow.