Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My clutch of R. Blair 9 milers are hatching right now. This outrageous patternless example came out to my pleasant surprise!!!! 6 more to go.....the other 2 that have hatched already are extremely light and awesome. Thanks for looking.

Very nice,that is an awesome Sanderson. Can't wait too see what else pops out. Keep the pics coming. Thanks for sharing.
Chuck

Looks like a sonora. lol Thats interesting. That is from Ric Blairs anery line?

Chris

Yes, I got both parents are from Ric in 2008. They are both poss. het anery. I hope an anery pops out!! 6 more to go...That would be exciting.

Here is a pic of male and female breeders.

Female:

Male:

Nice pair. Your male looks like my female 9 mile. Like to see what else come from that clutch. Here is my 9 mile male.

Chris

Nice looking 9 miler Chris! Awesome orange and nice pattern.

Thanks. Here is a pic of the 09' female. They might be ready to go next year.

Chris

You should produce some good looking babies next year.....
JD

Just curious. Who produced that pair? Light phase 9-milers certainly are not common.

I got the pair directly from Ric Blair in 2008, picked from his website. So far 3 are almost 100% patternless, 2 have orange banding and the rest are not out of the egg yet. Just curious, the pics of other Sanderson's in this thread are light as well.

JD

sent you an email Brian.

Chris

I sure the heck wouldn't call them 9-mile north animals.The animals that produced all ric's stock where collected from two spots about 15 miles apart.One adult was from 9-miles east of sanderson and the other was from the big hill 9 miles north.So, at best they are generic sandersons.
Nice looking snakes no doubt.Congrats.

L8r Shannon

Depends on what snakes were bred. That is one story.
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Steve W.

that story has been verified by a dozen folks Steve.
Unless you saw the snakes those were descended from with your own eyes like I did, then you don't KNOW. Let's not make a big stink about it AGAIN.

Not sure whether to say thank you or something else guys. I didn't ask Ric to provide the Sanderson family tree at the time of purchase, I did however feel that he was a reputable breeder. I'm sure many will dispute the Vivid reptiles line of River Road Alterna, but I will sell my babies as River Road Alterna from Vivid Reptiles. I also have Black Gap from T. Smith and I can sleep at night for selling them as Black Gap locale. I respect all the hard core Alterna breeders here, that's why I come to this forum. Hope everyone has much success this year with all their snakes.

The facts are that it turned out that a lot of his snakes turned out to not be what they were sold as, these will be generics, SORRY. Many people will stay clear from old Ric Blair stock

>>Not sure whether to say thank you or something else guys. I didn't ask Ric to provide the Sanderson family tree at the time of purchase, I did however feel that he was a reputable breeder. I'm sure many will dispute the Vivid reptiles line of River Road Alterna, but I will sell my babies as River Road Alterna from Vivid Reptiles. I also have Black Gap from T. Smith and I can sleep at night for selling them as Black Gap locale. I respect all the hard core Alterna breeders here, that's why I come to this forum. Hope everyone has much success this year with all their snakes.

Well, I DID do the homework on them.

I recently spoke with Gerry Salmon who collected either some or all of the original parent stock which founded this line. He knew of the controversy, and yet he can vouch for Dave Doherty as having bred PURE 9-mile northers. Those were Gerry's words, point blank. And Ric got those snakes from Dave.

I once borrowed a suboc from Ric to breed to mine, and he wanted NONE of the babies, since they would have been "non-locality". I have no reason to not trust any of the three aforementioned in this.

So, take that for what it's worth. Anyone doubting Gerry's words should contact HIM, since that is all I know or was told.

In any case, great looking snakes. Those patternless are to-die-for awesome.

that my friend is the heart of the issue. Nobody knows for sure.

>>that my friend is the heart of the issue. Nobody knows for sure.

Gerry knows. The reason I wrote "some or all" is because I don't recall if Gerry told me he caught the original male and female OR both. He told me. I don't remember.

so in order to trace these back youd have to get the pictures of Gerrys snakes he caught. The babies he gave to Dave. Then the babies Dave gave to Ric, wow, Im already lost. Good luck!!!
I guess you could just trust that everything with these has been legit, which maybe it has, but Id rather be sure. Its all a matter of personal opinion. Whats good enough for some, may not be for others. When anyone has a questionable animal, and they lack the details of the lineage, they will have to deal with people calling out their snakes. If someone calls your snakes generics, then just realize thats their opinion, just like your opinion that your snakes are 9 miles or whatever. It is just an opinion if you lack proof.

We know half the bloodline is pure 9 mile, and half of the bloodline is from 10 miles east.

Dusty, no offense, but if this is how you're going to take and accept data for your study you might as well flush the paper right now.

>>We know half the bloodline is pure 9 mile, and half of the bloodline is from 10 miles east.

Okay, maybe that is the case. Not saying it isn't. Just wonder why I would hear something different from Gerry, Dave, and Ric?

>>
>>Dusty, no offense, but if this is how you're going to take and accept data for your study you might as well flush the paper right now.

Well, let's get one thing straight on the study -- the only thing I'm using at this point are wild-caughts, and from trusted sources. I'll go on to F1s if and when I need them, and I don't even think Ric's stock would be F1s.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't use Ric's 9-milers since they're (1) not wild-caughts, (2) there is questionable doubt among the community (3) there are other WC 9-mile N animals I could get samples from, and (4) you have to do and sell science as being vigorously anal-retentive regarding your data sources. Since you have family in academic herpetology, Joe, I know this is nothing you don't already know...just sayin'.

Herpetoculture isn't science, and as a snake BREEDER, that was all I needed was someone's word. And even if they were generics, I bought the Anerys because they looked cool. Locality data was just an (perceived?) added plus. To me they look like the 9-mile N animals that Bryan Box and others have caught -- BUT pictures of "genealogical stock" don't prove anything.

And finally, getting data from outside sources and taking their word that it is legit is done all the time in academia. ANYbody can upload data to Genbank, for instance. And how many high-impact, heavily-cited papers have relied on Genbank for data? Untold thousands. No science is perfect, but I can tell you I will be doing the best I can to both (a) include other serious fellow hobbyists in research and (b) to do the best science possible. If there are any other snags in my data, methods, etc. I hope you and others here bring it up promptly (hopefully, I can count on some folks here to do this BEFORE I submit it for publication). : ) That's what this is for. : )

Cheers,

DR

a picture doesnt prove anything, but a picture with some data, and the word of the collecter will have to suffice. That last part, about the "word", is sooo important.

>>a picture doesnt prove anything, but a picture with some data, and the word of the collecter will have to suffice. That last part, about the "word", is sooo important.

Well, funnily enough, Ric’s first "9-mile" Anery snake is displayed in Merker’s book as being a “Sanderson” animal! lol. That was where I learned about them before I bought the trio I had. I bought them because they looked like this, though I think most people here have seen these photos (repeatedly):

And here’s the older sister sibling from Merker’s book:

The book-editing process usually weeds out easily-proven falsehoods (and I’m sure several alterna historians proofed that book before it went to press), but obviously some escape through the radar.

So, maybe people should call them “generics”, “generic Sandersons”, or “Sandersons” since 9-mile can’t be confirmed/agreed on. LOL. Man, this is silly. And I don’t really care either way.

Sorry for busting your balls yet AGAIN but would you mind posting the lineage of those snakes back to WC?

It seems you have TWO standards (from your posts) 1) Your criteria for accepting data for your research and 2) for accepting localities on faith. QUITE TROUBLESOME IMO

Perhaps you should clarify your position once and for all so that it doesn't continue to cast shadows on your research.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC

colin/ joe / and jeffs comments are spot on. as one of the first ever gap breeders i get a good laugh when i see gaps, or wherever for sale on classified, or at shows. tucson show has a seller with cups marked river, gap, davis (pure blairs morphs, lol!), etc... when i asked for pure w.c. lineage the seller said " i dont know". or ask "some" sellers in classified for pics of the w.c. adults, who found them, what year, theyll say cant help u. make no mistake, there are some excellent pure lineage breeders out there, they know who they are and can trace all there w.c., the point is u see all locality this and that ads, but some sellers cant prove they are 100 percent. i could care less about breeding alterna anymore, but i kept pics of w.c. adults and all babies i produced in the late 90's, early 2000's in case it ever came up.

"tucson show has a seller with cups marked river, gap, davis (pure blairs morphs, lol!), etc... when i asked for pure w.c. lineage the seller said " i dont know".

Why, that's AMAZING ______. Please fill in the blank this time. LOL!

Robert

fill in the blank? ok,... "GREYS".

…about Dusty's research. To make that suggestion is extremely rude. Just speak for yourself Joe.

No, Joe. I just said that Merker’s photo listed under his Sanderson chapter "apparently escaped through the radar” in the editing process. And I wasn’t being smart-alecky. I’m not arguing that these are 9-mile. But I’m only sharing the reason why I was previously led to believe they were (i.e. they were listed as locality-specific in a book).

This has nothing to do with my research at all. I’ve already given you four reasons why I’m not using Ric’s alterna in the research.

OK, on the book:

What Merker told me about the purpose of his book that it was meant to be an introduction to the natural history of L alterna as well as sort of a travel guide for new visitors to the Trans Pecos. I believe words to that effect are published in preface and/or foreword. He may be too modest to admit this, but it was also to showcase excellent photography throughout the book.

What he did with Terrell county is consistent with the handling every other county in his book. There is not single "exact locality" published in the entire book. Every single photograph is REPRESENTATIVE of animals found in that region, regardless if they are generic, or locality, or generic locality type.

It's my opinion that the book is fine, did not need any more editing, and suits it's purpose very nicely. I highly recommend Gerald's book.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC

I agree. Great book.

I think they are "Sanderson's", just not pure 9 mile North's.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>I think they are "Sanderson's", just not pure 9 mile North's.
>>-----
>>www.hcu-tx.org/

Gotcha.

Dusty, Yes Daves animal was a pure 9 mile north that he got from Salmon but......... he didn't have a mate for it and bred it with a 9 or 10 mile east snake from Buzz ross.In (97) I was at buzz's house and he showed me some anery looking washed out babies that he called 9 x 9's that where half his split from Dougherty from the loan.A couple years later I was at Ric's house and saw the same freaking snakes ( well sib's) and he said he had got them from Dave.I said hey, you know those are 9 x 9's right and he said well I really don't know but dave said they where 9-mile norths.I left it alone but a few years later ric started marketing them as pure 9-mile norths and I freaking know they aren't.They are poure alterna but I would just call them generic sanderson's to be safe.nuff said.
If you don't like that I will meet you at the bike racks at 3:30.LOL.....

L8r Shannon

If I remember correctly, Doherty denied the loan with Buzz Ross.
I believe this was in a string of posts that was removed when Ric had his flameout. In any event, see Doherty's account below of the history of his nine mile clutches in my post "From one of the principals". The Buzz Ross loan is not mentioned. This might be a case for Sherlock Holmes...LOL.

RP

They should just be called Sandersons. They don't have to be from the same rock cut to call them that. If they were close then they could be called 9 mile, 16 mile, east, west and so on.
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Steve W.

Generics work pretty good for me! You know, since there's no traceable lineage and all
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

I thought the lineage was a 9 mile and an east animal? If so thats where it's been traced.
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Steve W.

that's PART of it, yes, but when you trace a lineage you don't stop in the middle, you trace the ENTIRE lineage.

Are there any unknowns in the lineage? If yes, then generic or non local is the only acceptable result.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

>>Dusty, Yes Daves animal was a pure 9 mile north that he got from Salmon but......... he didn't have a mate for it and bred it with a 9 or 10 mile east snake from Buzz ross.In (97) I was at buzz's house and he showed me some anery looking washed out babies that he called 9 x 9's that where half his split from Dougherty from the loan.A couple years later I was at Ric's house and saw the same freaking snakes ( well sib's) and he said he had got them from Dave.I said hey, you know those are 9 x 9's right and he said well I really don't know but dave said they where 9-mile norths.I left it alone but a few years later ric started marketing them as pure 9-mile norths and I freaking know they aren't.They are poure alterna but I would just call them generic sanderson's to be safe.nuff said.
>>If you don't like that I will meet you at the bike racks at 3:30.LOL.....
>>
>>L8r Shannon

Thanks, Shannon. I’m not from Missouri, but I’m a show-me kind of guy. It seems I have been shown. Or certainly told! I appreciate the info.

DR

ya'll think I make this [bleep] up!
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

So Gerry's going to vouch for this entire family tree, from three different breeders? BS I've known Gerry a lot longer than you and I know what Gerry knows about this. I've discussed it at length with him.

Look Dusty, this is pretty freaking simple, either produce the family tree and prove they are legit, or they are Generic. Simple.

Gerry can't do it, because the BREEDERS CAN'T EVEN DO IT.

Now you're are going to magically say a few words and make them pure? COUGH COUGH....

it just dawned on me, you are not a disinterested party lmao..... sorry hahahah! it's tainted!

>>it just dawned on me, you are not a disinterested party lmao..... sorry hahahah! it's tainted!

LOL! I unfortunately no longer have ANY alterna. So...NOT SO. LOL

Thanks dustyroads......glad to hear it. I apprecite the kind words about my patternless babies. I was very happy to see them come out of the egg. The clutch has nice orange banded examples and some with sliver thin ghost looking markings.....just like the parents.

I didn't Joe. Someone else did. It's just not right to give a wrong opinion sometimes.
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Steve W.

>>I didn't Joe. Someone else did. It's just not right to give a wrong opinion sometimes.
>>-----
>>Steve W.

Prove it and trace the lineage back to WC.

research. If you are going to say, "Ive got this locality, or that locality", you'd better be prepared to have people scrutinize your animals. That being said, why would anyone buy alternas from someone who cant provide them a lineage? Time and time again people get burned, yet they still come on here and show pictures of snakes, calling them "whatever" locality, then get their feeling hurt when people call BS. Take a look at this link.
Link

It's not for me to do. Dave had pure 9 miler's and I know that for sure.
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Steve W.

This happened even before he had his hands on them, that's how lost you are.

Joe, I'm going by the animals that Dave sold. Nothing more. if the anery's came from "those" snakes they are 9 miler's. Not lost at all. I'm just a little different in that if I have an issue with a breeder I discuss it with him privately and won't bash his name in public because some things aren't intententional. That's all.
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Steve W.

wellll I'm gonna tell you two things, I didn't bring a name into it, YOU DID, and you're STILL WRONG LMAO they are as screwed up as the rest of them, read the e-mails posted, then weep a little, and quit busting my balls over something you are in the dark over.

a non locality is a non locality is a non locality is a non locality

>>Joe, I'm going by the animals that Dave sold. Nothing more. if the anery's came from "those" snakes they are 9 miler's. Not lost at all. I'm just a little different in that if I have an issue with a breeder I discuss it with him privately and won't bash his name in public because some things aren't intententional. That's all.
>>-----
>>Steve W.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

This is where you're WRONG again. I didn't mention a name first. Someone else did. Joe, you seem to have a need for busting people's chops when something isn't as seen through your rose colored glasses. You give some good guys a hard time while there are others out there who are theives and there is no mention of that. Say what you want about the good guys because it's your right. But, attacking their credibility is bull. A lot of what's being said is hear say.
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Steve W.

wasn't even about him.... nor was it about the guy with too many alterna to keep straight, you indeed brought him into this.

we knew the error occurred prior, so there was no need to mention names

and yeah, I'm not going to endorse either one of those guys, SORRY! LMAO
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

What ever Joe. LOL
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Steve W.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1926136,1928160
did you post that or did I?

thought so, whatever my rear....
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

can you read my friend. Yes I posted when the first time I 'bred" alterna was. Not collected . LOL
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Steve W.

Sorry, I answered another question here. LOL I did post that.

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Steve W.

Steve,
I can read alright, and that points to another instance where you brought his name into it. I'm going to tell you again that you're wrong.

You're wrong to jump on Shannon for posting what he did because Shannon's info is factual.

You're wrong because every time someone buys a snake from that line they get "duped" and end up here.

You're wrong for perpetuating that. What do you want to do? Sweep it under the rug because it's not pretty? Shall we not tell these folks and just chuckle every time one of them gets screwed?

You're wrong because you think it's about __ or __. Wrong, I'm going to say it again, you never even have to mention the initials if you just ask folks to trace the lineage, the whole lineage, not part of it.

You're wrong for jumping on me because you want to defend the "poor persecuted ______" BS! Look what we are dealing with every time someone gets duped into buying one of these!

NOW I ASK YOU, CAN YOU READ? DID I GET THROUGH?

>>can you read my friend. Yes I posted when the first time I 'bred" alterna was. Not collected . LOL
>>-----
>>Steve W.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

Joe, my last post states I posted to the wrong thing. Keep cool. I never mentioned Shannon either. I just seen the can being opened. Anyone concerned could have just emailed the guy that started the thread.
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Steve W.

he had pure micropholis too LMAO

you all might as well let Mr. Forks have the last word because even if you prove he is wrong it will get deleated as my posts were yesterday.
Pete

someone would have to trace the lineage back to WC to Prove me wrong. So put up or shut up.

I try to stay low key on here but...
a. We have 1 animal left from RB. Its a Juno Type with sunbeam screamer orange. It bred successfully to something we think we can trace back to WC female on s curves. But because of the other situation.. if indeed we give away or trade or think of selling babies, they will be generic Juno "type" alterna. We didn't catch them or personally know who did. So they are generics.

b. Sanderson, I know the subject is on East vs 9 mile, but I can tell you for FACT that weird animals like that are taken from all over. We have one that WE personally collected that looks phenominal (pre-ban) that was bred with another from the same cut and the offspring look like something that would be from the gap. Im talking weird fades, weird bands, everything. Offspring are even more spectacular. To sum up, I wouldn't judge the animals, just by looks alone. If they are generics BECAUSE of the lack of documentation then I would support that.

c. All boils down to up front honesty when advertising your animals. If you disclose all your info, then the buyer decides whether or not to invest.

Thats why I loved the old Dan Johnson website, and I like Collin's as well. Stu I trust since I have known him since the mid 90s when Ron introduced us.

These long threads bring me down a bit, but I understand they are needed to maintain perspective. It's because we (alterna enthusiasts) got LAX that we stopped keeping good records and mistakes were made.

**Note--RB was never anything but beyond nice to Lance and I. He replaced animals at no charge. I wouldn't let one mistake spoil a reputation. I do understand if say generic based on the lack of documentation.**

You might need to e-mail Robert P about the Juno lineage, he might be able to shed some dark on that for you.

Sorry!

one more thing.... on the 10 east x 9 north, this is not about Ric or Dave or looks, it's about the animals and something a bunch of us KNOW to be true because we saw it with our own eyes and the old Buzzard also verbally confirmed to us.

So I understand why all these guys that got dupped are butt hurt, but come on man, bottom line is this it's eaither a locality snake or it's not. If you're sure it's a locality snake then you should be able to trace paternal and maternal lineages to WC. If not then it's UNKNOWN, and the only thing left to do is call it generic.

I've asked more than once for someone to post the linegae, but I'm not holding my breath because I know where it began.

So most of the folks reading this make ASSUMPTIONS THAT IT'S ABOUT THE PEOPLE - WRONG - it's about these snakes and lack of documentation.

NOW HERE'S SOMETHING ELSE THAT CHAPS MY ASS

WTF is wrong with generics? Some of these snakes are kick ass, and I own them myself. Why would you want to crap on your generics by saying they are something that they aren't? There is no shame in owning a generic!!!!

LOVE YOUR SNAKES GENERIC AND LOCALITY ALIKE! Just call it what it is!

Kudos to Chris Drake who obviously understands this concept. He posted photos of his beautiful generics and is obviously proud of them.

definitions for the this thread

LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC

I agree, generic snakes are awesome. IMHO there is something really cool about snakes that match to a T what we think of as the perfect example of a particular species or subspecies. For me this is especially true of getula ssp. I love a perfect Speckled King that's 100% speckled with no hint of crossbars, a perfect "desert phase" California Kingsnake that's truly black and white, a perfect Eastern King that has perfect chains, a perfect Mexican Black King that's 100% patternless black, etc., etc.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Thanks Joe for the kind comment. Bottom line for me is that I love Alterna. Locality or not. They are beautiful regardless whether or not i know where they came from. When the babies hatch i will sell or give them away as generics as I should. My 9 miles are from someone elses line not mentioned and i know this person is solid but because of this thread i've asked for lineage info anyways. I know one of the original adults is on the alterna page. The mate i don't know yet but working on it. I have a feeling some of the old OLD school guys went on trust and may have not kept great photo records. If i can't verify i guess i'm calling them generics too. As for the snakes and peoples lineage in question, i don't know so i won't comment. I do prefer locale specific animals but won't turn down any alterna. Even if they look like vader. Chris

" WTF is wrong with generics? Some of these snakes are kick ass, and I own them myself. Why would you want to crap on your generics by saying they are something that they aren't? There is no shame in owning a generic!!!!

LOVE YOUR SNAKES GENERIC AND LOCALITY ALIKE! Just call it what it is! "

Great statement there Joe!!!!! Highly agree!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Did they come from the same place as the other lines came from here in the U.S. ?
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Steve W.

maybe!

Chris

why must it be my job to educate you? it would be really nice if you knew the first thing about ANY of the things you like to argue about here. do some research and get back to me, or else you're just a "hot air vent".
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

Take a chill pill. Point is to stop attacking peoples credibility. I can tell you stories that would make your head spin about some alterna friends but it's not my place to do so. Put it to rest.
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Steve W.

these people have only themselves to blame for their lack of credibility. The only time I brought up the name was to say it happened before it got to them. Sorry but those folks made their own beds.

Fact remains, YET AGAIN YOU MADE ANOTHER INACCURATE ASSUMPTION. Can you do any freaking research?
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

I can do all the research I need to do when I'm aquiring something from someone. Credibility has a lot to do with all of this. I would be the first person to complain if someone purposely tried to represent something as something other than what it is. I'm not arguing that fact with you at all. But if I ran into you in west Texas and you had a Juno snake you would like to sell and I needed one. I would probably trust your word that it is what it is and trust you. Some people in the alterna world deserve that respect.
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Steve W.

Yeah well I can think of at least TWO that dont!

we can keep going round and round here Steve, if you want

here's where you brought his name into it
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1926136,1928160

There's information posted in this threads that contradicts what you said there, and I happen to KNOW the posted info is right and you are WRONG.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

It used to be that one could buy and sell locality alterna based on just the name of the breeder/seller. That seems to be changing with the advent of the internet. Alot of people have made mistakes or been duped, it has always been that way. I think it's just that now with the internet these incidents are slowly being revealed.

A few years ago I began to trim my alterna collection down to where most of the alterna I have can be traced to animals that I caught. I have 277's that are my own stock but I also have other 277's that I can only trace to a collecter/breeder, not to the specific animals.

Prior to this thread I never felt the need to call them generics. I purchased my adults of this bloodline in the mid-90's before the internet, and easy picture exchanges, were the norm. Back when I purchased them it was common to send an SASE(self adressed stamped envelope - some people probably don't even know what those letters stand for nowdays, lol) and $1 for each picture. Getting pictures of the entire lineage was certainly not common. Most of the time you sent one or two bucks and just got a couple pics just to show what the bloodline looked like. In those days it was considered research just to be able to say what collecter/breeder you got them from and if they came from a respected collecter/breeder you were good to call them locality.

I am on the fence as to whether I should now start calling them generics. I am leaning towards representing them as I always have, 277's from so-and-so's bloodline. I don't think there is anything wrong with that because it's honest and prospective buyers can still decide for themselves whether or not that's enough information.

To be clear, in my case the breeder I got those particular 277's from was also the collecter. So I do have the lineage all the way back to the field collecter, I just don't have pictures of each specimen and since this breeder collected alot of 277's and I never asked, I don't know which individual specimens were used to produce the ones I got from him. I don't know if they are F1's, F2's, etc. I just know that he collected all the adults that mine descended from. Would these now be considered generics? I don't know. I never mixed them into the bloodlines that I collected so I still have 277's for which I could provide all the information and pictures anybody could want.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Aaron, the whole picture requirement is a nice touch but the breeder/collectors word is just as valuable if not more. The reason I feel that way is because they can show you a picture but it doesn't mean that the snake in the picture is the real deal. Pictures can be misrepresented too. In the end we have to rely on honesty and trust.
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Steve W.

The natural progression is to lose track. it's easy to lose track, and over time, and multiple generations that is what is going to happen - folks will lose track. 95% of these critters lineages are lost.

Sure if they want to cheat they still can, but we're not going to make it easy for them cheat. And just because someone pieces together some BS bloodline doesn't mean everyone is going to buy into it. And if it's out front for everyone to see, then it's under maximum scrutiny. It's still not gonna be perfect, but it's what we are faced with.

The locality breeders are a dying breed and the ones who keep immaculate notes are few and far between, but they are the ones who will benefit because locality stock is going to become harder and harder to acquire for a multitude of reasons.

There was a time when we knew every snake collected and every collector collecting the snakes. That's how we know so much about some of these bloodlines. Those days are going away.
There may come a time when the only locality snakes left are in the wild, I don't want to see that happen.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

I agree with you 100% on that one. 100%
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Steve W.

LMAO...... Amen brother!

L8r

Steve,

I’ve reproduced one of Doherty’s posts about his 9 mile alterna. I remember this being covered a few years ago so I performed an archive search. There may have been more posts, but they probably vanished as part of a string that included a few “terms of service” violations, lol. Anyway, his version of his 9 mile history follows:

Posted by: ddoherty at Mon Jul 13 20:29:24 2009 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by ddoherty ] [ Follow this user in Connect ]

I`ll try to shed alittle light on this thread. I cannot confirm the specific lineage of the original 2 pictures that were posted because I did not produce them. Evidently, Bob produced them and they are probably descendants from animals that I once worked with in the early to mid 90`s. I collected one female on the North (9 mile) cut in Sanderson around 1990-91. The picture that Damon posted is the correct animal. Because I could not obtain a 9 mile mate for her, I used a Hwy 90 (5 mile east of Sanderson) male that John Hollister caught to produce a couple clutches in the early 90`s. Around 1994, I obtained the 9 mile male that Gerry Salmon collected (the one Damon posted). I also obtained another 9 mile female (wc by Joe Forks) in the mid 90s. I then had 1.2 wild caughts and did produce a few clutches (probably 15-20 babies) from this trio in the mid 90s. I can`t remember who ended up with which animals, but everyone knew that the early 90s animals were not pure 9 milers. Two of the three wild caughts died around 1997, and I haven`t produced a 9 mile Sanderson since then.
Hope this helps,
David Doherty

Robert, I'm not saying one way or the other which ones are pure and which one are not. The 9 mile x east's should just be called Sandersons. I just don't think it's proper to bash anyone's name here. If it's personal there is always messaging and emails.
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Steve W.

Note that Doherty does not mention a Buzz Ross animal in his history. It's a wacky world we live in...

RP

Since I started this thread and it was all just to show other Alterna forum members some nice examples of snakes I hatched, I will sell them as Sanderson Alterna! I have always been honest in representing any snakes I sell and work with. I used the 9 mile designation because that is what they were listed as at time of purchase. I think Ric had one of the most awesome collections ever, and I'm proud to have a nice breeder pair from him.

JD

JD sent you an email a few days ago from my iPhone

jadreptile@msn.com

I think you've learned something about that lineage that you didn't know before you posted your pics, and that's a good thing for you and other readers of this forum. The more information is out there the better.

RP

the beauty of this is, we don't have to bring any names into it, if you rest your laurels on the snakes and the lineage. These snakes are NON Locality or generic.

In order to call them Sandersons you'd have to post the rest of the lineage, and since I've been asking you to do that for a couple days now I doubt you're gonna do it.

But folks like you want to blindly accept anything your idol did as perfect. I'm not sure how else to explain this phenomenon you display.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

Unfortunately, Ric's line in this case can't be traced back to the WC. Think about it, the wc that may have given rise to the line is from 9 miles east of town and collected by Buzz Ross. Doherty does not acknowledge the Buzz Ross snake. What does that tell you?

RP

you're not going to convince Steve of anything, he operates on BLIND FAITH..... lmao
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

Joe, I operate on trust too. I've always trusted you, Gerry, Don, and dave to name a few. When I first went to look for alterna in 1988 Dave was the ONLY person to direct me in the right area and give me advise as to where I should try looking. While some of the old timers(no names will be mentioned)would try to send us in another direction. He sat down with us and treated us like family. That goes a long way. There is no way in hell I would have had luck my first year without his help. I was never in the area before because of the laws. say what you will.
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Steve W.

totally unrelated to what we're talking about here. I must say I find it curious that all these folks have the "shoot the messenger" syndrome and then "kiss the ass" that screwed them. But hey, YOU brought him into this, not me. I'm sticking to the issue of the snakes with 1) mixed lineage for sure 2) the rest of the lineage unknown

YOU were the first one to speak about how wrong all this is.... BS - you were wrong.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

>> When I first went to look for alterna in 1988

More BS from Steve
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1911768,1912466

when does it end? time for you to bow out
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

You just prooved you're foolish. That thread was when you first "BRED" alterna. Not went to west Texas to collect one from the wild. You are really grasping straws now. Ha ha Take a pill buddy.
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Steve W.

I'll give you that one.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

If someone is trying to pertray animals as being locality that they are not then they must be willing to be called out on it, this is the perfect format to educate folks on certain linnage. If you don't want scrutany then be honest with your info. Now not everyone is dis honest on here some folks just don't know, they bought animals at face value and got screwed on the data. If I bought animals that where in accurate to there localities then I would want others to know so as not be taken like I was and to help keep viable captive blood lines pure.

Generic, Non locality, Mutt,- call that peternless anything you want. To me that is one of the most outstanding and beautiful alternas that I have seen. How do I get one? PLEASE.
theOLDherper
Pete