Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have two Leopard torts, one is a little over two years old and the other is a little over one. The older tort grew about 4 inches her first year we had her and the next year she grew about 3. The younger tort has grown about 2 inches and from what I have read the normal growth rate for leopards are 2-4. They have been on the same diet as well. Now the last couple of months my wife noticed that they younger tort does not seem to be as active as the other on is or was at this age. I don't know if this is medical or just personality type- these are the first torts we ever owned. Now this morning my wife took a look at little guy and said that it looks like his hind legs are swollen, I personally do not know if they really are or if the tort was letting a little more butt hang out then normal.

As you can tell, I do not know a lot about medical matters with torts so I was wondering if any of you have any idea what might be going on here?

Also I was wondering if any of you know of any good books that talk more about medical matters with torts? I already own RICHARD FIFE's book but personally I would like like to know more about medical matters with these animals and just don't know where to find the resources.

I know that I probably should get this tort in to a vet for a check up but I figure right now I have no vets in my area that are familiar with torts- just a lot of cats, dogs, small mammals, and birds so if I have an idea where to look before I get there I can give them some guidance as to what we may be looking are rather then paying them to do the research on every a tort can get.

I will try to post a pic of the tort legs in the next day or two to try to help shed some light on this for you guys as well.

Thanks,
Matt

here is a pic

Hi Matt,

The legs don't look very swollen from what I see. At this time of year, I would be somewhat concerned that the tortoise is not warm enough, depending upon where you live. Also if you are keeping that one with the one which is 8-10 inches (going by the growth you mentioned), is it getting enough to eat or being bullied away from the food? if you email me privately, I will send you my Care Sheet for Star Tortoises which have virtually the same needs as Leopards.

If you mention where you live in the email, I may be able to recommend a reptile vet in your area as well.

Bill Z

Hey Bill,
My apologies for chiming in with my previous.
I did not mean to undercut your message -
just concerned for the condition of the little leopard.
Agreed the legs did not look swollen.
They did look splayed to me however,
and with the other signs I saw strongly suggested MBD.
I hope all's well with you.
Keep up the good work.
Dan O.

I am sure you will not welcome this news but I regret to inform you that your little tortoise shows many symptoms of metabolic bone disease.
The carapace is pyramided. Spinal depression is evident.
The nails are overgrown. It is not receiving appropriate exposure to natural sunlight or diet.
These problems can all be partly corrected over time but without address of these deficiencies and immediate veterinary intervention that little tortoise faces a dismal future.

I think we need better pictures here, But I agree this looks like metabolic bone disease and I agree with Jerry, too cold.
I don’t think raising the light to cover a bigger area is a good idea it seems we are already too cold.
I think you are going to have to re-think the whole environment with particular attention to heat, light and calcium phosphors ratio.

Sam Pascucci

That tortoise does not look good. You're biggest problem is most likely temperature... way too low whatever it is.

Check this out... it might help.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0793828988/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=12509178225&ref=pd_sl_6hgjs7r2zw_b

I'm open to any specific questions you have either here (where others would benefit) or at epirog@comcast.net

Bullying is a possibility.

>>I have two Leopard torts, one is a little over two years old and the other is a little over one. The older tort grew about 4 inches her first year we had her and the next year she grew about 3. The younger tort has grown about 2 inches and from what I have read the normal growth rate for leopards are 2-4. They have been on the same diet as well. Now the last couple of months my wife noticed that they younger tort does not seem to be as active as the other on is or was at this age. I don't know if this is medical or just personality type- these are the first torts we ever owned. Now this morning my wife took a look at little guy and said that it looks like his hind legs are swollen, I personally do not know if they really are or if the tort was letting a little more butt hang out then normal.
>>
>>As you can tell, I do not know a lot about medical matters with torts so I was wondering if any of you have any idea what might be going on here?
>>
>>Also I was wondering if any of you know of any good books that talk more about medical matters with torts? I already own RICHARD FIFE's book but personally I would like like to know more about medical matters with these animals and just don't know where to find the resources.
>>
>>I know that I probably should get this tort in to a vet for a check up but I figure right now I have no vets in my area that are familiar with torts- just a lot of cats, dogs, small mammals, and birds so if I have an idea where to look before I get there I can give them some guidance as to what we may be looking are rather then paying them to do the research on every a tort can get.
>>
>>I will try to post a pic of the tort legs in the next day or two to try to help shed some light on this for you guys as well.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Matt
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I am not sure that temp is the issue, I could be wrong, as I have said I do not know a ton about tortoises but we keep the room at 78 degrees or so... I think bulling could be an issue so I put and section about 15 inchs x 15. that is the smaller tort can get into but the larger one cannot. as far as lighting goes the cage is set up inside with a uvb light on one side and that side of the cage also gets direct sunlight from a window but there is half the cage that gets neither... I personally figured it is not much different from the torts that are housed out side and can go into a shed to get out of the sun. I will have my wife comment later about what they have been eating because she monitors all of that. I do value everyone's insight on this and appreciate your help.

Thanks,
Matt

Matt,
Good luck with the little leopard.
The direct sunlight you mentioned is filtered by glass. The necessary and beneficial ultraviolet light the little tortoise needs is not available through windows unless they are open.
Direct sunlight means outside in it. But there is plenty of UV outside even in the shade. Just don't know if you are in a warm enough area to provide that remedy now.
Dan O.

yah outside is not an option, I live in wisconsin so it is way to cool out there, I need to hang my uvb light higher in the room so that it shines down on the whole area.

I will get some pics of my set up later this week so that you guys can give me your input.

Matt

Even if the room is heated, its cooler on the floor.Everyone should lay down on the turtle room floor to see for themselfs the BIG difference. You could possably make a shelf that goes along the wall or two or more walls maybe 18" wide and as long as the room. It will be a lot hotter and seperate it from others. It would work while it is small and get it stronger. Hang some UV lights over the hotest area. Once summer comes up their, get it out in that grass that grows up the big black and white cows you'all have! I worked on a farm up there milking them milk monsters one summer. I think it still has time to heal but it needs some strong leggs for later in life. Vic pic.....made in the shade

Good point about building up the leg muscles to support
that little leopard's eventual weight, Vic.

Thanks, Once my babies plastrom fully heals over at the yoak sack site I give them a ruffer substrate like bark chips and cypress mulch,and cork bark so there is some "resistance" bumps and lumps to climb over when they walk as opposed to paper or moss and soft stuff were their legs just "slide" outward like their swimming. I even tilt the container and make them walk up hill to the food.!HUNGGAULLA-TIMBA*(j.wisemiller/Tarzan) little one. Vic, tortoise drill sargent.

as far as my temps go... they are pretty even through out the whole room because I have them in about a 10x 14 room with a 42 inch fan that runs none stop 24-7, I have a few different thermometers in the room. I also have them on cypress mulch for bedding. For feed my wife feeds them a lot of romaine lettic and kail as well as mix of vegs, like peppers, tomato, celery, ext. She also has feed them fruit once in a blue moon like strawberries but that is not very common because if I recall right someone told us that fruits are bad for torts. As I said already, I do not know what is all going on, and I apologize for not getting pictures right a way but I do not have internet at my house right now and still have not had time to get them.

Matt

tomato is a fruit often classified as a vegetable -

probably best avoided except as an occasional treat
because of its adverse Calcium/Phosphorus ratio

especially for a strictly herbivorous animal

Constant 78 degrees may be a little cool, particularly if there is a health issue. In our book we mention day time temps in the 80's with a hot area at least 85-90 degrees. Good luck.

Jerry

I think we need better pictures here, But I agree this looks like metabolic bone disease and I agree with Jerry, too cold.
I don’t think raising the light to cover a bigger area is a good idea it seems we are already too cold.
I think you are going to have to re-think the whole environment with particular attention to heat, light and calcium phosphors ratio.

Sam Pascucci