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Bumped up from below, diet and sick anim

FR Jan 03, 2012 10:55 AM

This is in responce to Harveys canned diet formulated by a MS in nutri.

Thats the problem, that kind of answer, is so out of context to the current level of keeping.

Heres the reality, vets are WAY behind, and for good reason, their business and practice are based on poor methods of keeping, My bet is, there is not one specialist in varanid reproductive medicine In the whole country. Or even any classes in any university that is current with our NOW level of success.

How this relates to you and Cindys recomendation is, with current husbandry methods, this canned food is obsolete.

In otherwords, these canned foods help when conditions are poor and stay poor. But are so not needed with condtions are good. Not even with recovery.

The same is true for illness, under current known good conditions, Monitors do not get sick. Because current conditions support the immune system. We just do not see the common illnesses caused by pet shop conditions, and commonly treated by vets.

So with nice folks like Harvey, they search the internet and are comparing their animal to other animals in the same condition and with the same outlook. History says, your Sav will die, as most before it. and I mean most. So if you want to change the outcome, they do something different.

ALso nice folks like Harvey, care and care alot. But caring and love or whatever, has no effect on the outcome. In fact, over caring seems to be a huge problem. By protecting monitors from what is normal to them.

What some here and I are attempting to get across to Harvey, is what a actual healthy monitor is like.

Heres the problem, its like first graders being taught by other first graders. The ones learning will find that a very easy class. But if they're taught by high schoolers or college level folks, those same first graders will be challanged and find it much harder to understand.

Back to Vets, nothing against them, but their market and experience is based on failing animals, not on successful animals. More later,

Replies (33)

dekaybrown Jan 03, 2012 11:58 AM

Everyone with successful healthy animals who takes the to the vet for no reason, raise your hands.

Of course vets specialize in SICK animals, they are doctors.

Why on earth would people take their successful (your favourite word) healthy animals on a stressful road trip to see a vet??

Wow, simply amazing.
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

WillStill Jan 03, 2012 12:27 PM

Hi Harvey,

I think the point that Frank was making was that vets have no experience dealing with healthy varanids, so most of them, unless they are varanophiles themselves, have no clue how to properly treat them. They base failing treatments on previous failing animals that they have cared for. Antibiotics and de-worming drugs are prescribed, when all these animals need are good conditions (access to high temps, appropriate humidity, whole foods and security) and they will heal themselves. The varanid pet trade is essentially an on-going cycle of failure, for the most part anyway.

Will

WillStill Jan 03, 2012 12:29 PM

Sorry Wayne, I didn't mean address you by your last name.

Will

dekaybrown Jan 03, 2012 10:54 PM

We all get heated under the collar from time to time.

The fact that I have two first names or two last names does not help.

I'm sure there is a few Harvey Wayne's out there.
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

murrindindi Jan 03, 2012 12:43 PM

These animals are "disposable", if they weren`t, there wouldn`t be a trade.....
I agree with Will and Frank; the overwhelming majority of vets have very little to zero experience with healthy Varanids to know what`s best for a sick one....

FR Jan 03, 2012 03:43 PM

Hi Wayne, I too am sorry for calling you by your last name.

The point is, what makes a captive healthy is proper captive husbandry.

Vets have little to no experience on what proper husbandry is.

For instance, vets can examine a monitor and do fecals, and bloodwork etc. prescribe drugs etc. But have you ever been to a vets that has monitor cages with 150F basking areas????? or even any basking area????????? Or deep substrate, etc

Those types of things are what keep monitors healthy, so you would think it would also be necessary for sick monitors. And it is.

Please nothing against Vets, I have some very good friends that are vets and reptile specialists too. Its just our area of interest is so small, they cannot provide specific care just for the few monitors that come in a year.

Cheers

dekaybrown Jan 03, 2012 11:08 PM

Frank I understand completely what you are saying, My vet is a bright young lady, and she told me Chompers basking spot was too hot??

It's 2.3 degrees below 130!! I just dumped in a heap more dirt, so the rock will be going up a tad closer to the lights by days end tomorrow.

It's just that that slap of stone weighs as much as I do, and I will have to crib it up with some boards while I shovel some dirt under it.
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

FR Jan 04, 2012 09:03 AM

I do wish you luck, but I am not sure luck is going to work for you.

Take that rock out before you have a dead monitor. Lets start by using some Zoo decoration guidelines. That is, heavist things down. If your going to use a heavy rock, like you mentioned, it must be secured to the bottom of the cage. If not, your monitor will dig underneath and kill itself.

AGain, I learned this the hard way. The reason RETES boards are made of wood and with runners is because we lost a number of monitors this way.

Also, if you live in a cooler climate, like the northeast, that rock becomes a sink for cool and will not allow a decent heating area.

You must consider, the hot basking area is not just to provide a basking spot of 135F or more. The reason many of us use hot spots over 150F is, they also provide hot areas underneath and around the basking spot that the monitor can choose from.

The important part of this is DARK hot spots. As dark hot spots are what is utilized far more then lite hot spots.

If your rock heats up enough to allow the monitor to choose good temps underneath it, then the monitor will make that its home/shelter. It will keep digging and digging, arranging and arranging until that rock crushes down on it.

Again, I wish you luck.

dekaybrown Jan 04, 2012 09:32 AM

Thanks for that Frank...

Will change immediately.
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

Paradon Jan 03, 2012 01:02 PM

Varanids are not that complicated in terms of what to feed them compared to iguanids and tortoises. I know a someone down the highway that breeds Varanids and he doesn't even keep them that good an dall he feed it is rats and mice. He has one for over 25 years...an old breeder. And I know a kid down the street that breeds a whole bunch of lace monitors; he had to give them to the pet store in Lodi.

crocdoc2 Jan 03, 2012 06:15 PM

"And I know a kid down the street that breeds a whole bunch of lace monitors; he had to give them to the pet store in Lodi."

I know! They're like hamsters, right? Start off with a pair and the next thing you know you can't GIVE them away!

Then there's the one about that python that gets out of its enclosure every night to lie next to its keeper, measuring its length against the height of the keeper, until one night...

twillis10 Jan 03, 2012 09:03 PM

ahaha. The python sizing someone up. Ive heard this so many times I dont even argue anymore more. When people ask if Ive heard of it I just say yup.

Paradon Jan 03, 2012 11:04 PM

This happens to be true... The kid is 17 years old.

crocdoc2 Jan 03, 2012 11:30 PM

Yup.

You mean the person being measured by the python, right?

FR Jan 04, 2012 09:07 AM

Good mourning, as usual, your stories are wonderful and entertaining, but pictures of any of this would be great. Its not that we do not believe you, cause we don't, but we just like to look at pictures.

So if you want some manner of credibility, provide something tangible. You have already stated you do this because you like to "discuss" over the internet.

Both David and I, are/were Lacie breeders and would love to see someone elses results. So thanks for sharing.

murrindindi Jan 04, 2012 10:07 AM

Hi Paradon,
does the kid do international shipping for free, too?
If yes, can you ask him to send me a couple of the very old Lace monitors (I don`t want the youngsters), I`ve heard the darn things breed like rabbits, and you can`t give `em away...
Thanks, much appreciated!

PHFaust Jan 07, 2012 06:07 PM

Frank,

We will have to respectfully disagree. Someone once told me you have to learn from the animal what is best and learn from experience not books. Perhaps that someone was a little fuzzy from a few beers.

While I respect your knowledge and even agree with you a great deal of the time, this is not one of them.

Here are some intake numbers of monitors I have taken in over time.
Nile Monitor 42" 2lbs11.8oz
Nile Monitor 40" 3lbs11oz
Nile Monitor 26.5" 10.10z
Savannah Monitor 14.25" 2.7OZ
Savannah Monitor 17.5" 5.8oz
Savannah Monitor 20" 8.7oz

My most recent monitor intake was 41" and 28 oz on intake.

That is where the diet must include things such as the dog food. Now while you are thinking dog food as in kibbles and bits, the brand I use is merely a mix of meat, organs and water. I increase the water as well. This is also not a sole diet, however this is the reality of rescue. These are animals that often times can not support their own bodies weight.

At that stage, dehydration is in fact a situation that needs to be addressed with more than pinky mice or other rodents and proper husbandry. It needs a boost. The animals do need the soaking, but because of their often weakened states, the need additional support to properly rehabilitate.

Dog food, while never a staple of any reptile's diet in my opinion, has a valid use in proper rehydration in the rehabilitation stages.
Image
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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dekaybrown Jan 08, 2012 02:03 AM

If the animal is severely weak and cannot or will not drink on it's own, Those dastardly know nothing veterinarians can do a "Normosol-R infusion"

This is not a do it yourself at home thing, It's the equivalent of a ringers lactate IV for a trauma victim.

When an animal is on the brink of death, when the organs are ready to shut down forever, doing this procedure will improve chances of survival immensely.

Thankfully this Sav sounds like it's turning around wonderfully, so it would not be necessary.

...

Image
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

PHFaust Jan 08, 2012 06:00 PM

>>If the animal is severely weak and cannot or will not drink on it's own, Those dastardly know nothing veterinarians can do a "Normosol-R infusion"
>>
>> This is not a do it yourself at home thing, It's the equivalent of a ringers lactate IV for a trauma victim.

Once trained this can be done successfully at home, but one does need a vet to get the product. I do this on my own regularly.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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murrindindi Jan 08, 2012 10:23 AM

Hi, I`d like to ask what you mean by "the animals do need a soaking", and "more than proper husbandry can provide"? (Obviously a dehydrated animal needs fluids).
Proper husbandry provides ALL their needs, surely?
"Husbandry" is EVERYTHING we do, or do not do with them in captivity ....

PHFaust Jan 08, 2012 05:59 PM

>>Hi, I`d like to ask what you mean by "the animals do need a soaking", and "more than proper husbandry can provide"? (Obviously a dehydrated animal needs fluids).
>>Proper husbandry provides ALL their needs, surely?
>>"Husbandry" is EVERYTHING we do, or do not do with them in captivity ....

Adjusting the husbandry to proper levels is one thing, but if you look at some of the animals I have dealt with in my time as a rescuer, I have had to not only offer the additional fluids through diet, but also subcutaneous fluids as well. (Injectable for those not sure). When rehabbing, I want to get these animals up to par as fast as possible so as to reduce the stress I would be putting on them by messing with them. Personally I feel monitors should have spunk and not be complete lumps, but I feel as much stress as I induce dragging the animal out for three times a day soaks can be reduced by creating a quick recovery method. The faster I can reduce my time with the animal, the better, in my book. Then they can go about their way being monitors.

If you look at the listing I provided, you can see that husbandry was NOT done for these animals. For some, for a very long time. Husbandry changes when they come to me, but there is more that is needed in the cases I deal with.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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murrindindi Jan 08, 2012 06:44 PM

Sorry, I still don`t understand what you mean by soaking the monitors, unless they drink the water they`re put in, soaking in itself won`t rehydrate them?
And how would offering the dog food with added water be very useful, surely it will be a soggy "mush", and a mouse or rat contains lots of fluid, too!

I totally agree, Varanids SHOULD be healthy, alert and active, unfortunately, that doesn`t last too long for most captives...

PHFaust Jan 08, 2012 10:54 PM

>>Sorry, I still don`t understand what you mean by soaking the monitors, unless they drink the water they`re put in, soaking in itself won`t rehydrate them?
>>And how would offering the dog food with added water be very useful, surely it will be a soggy "mush", and a mouse or rat contains lots of fluid, too!
>>
>>I totally agree, Varanids SHOULD be healthy, alert and active, unfortunately, that doesn`t last too long for most captives...

Soaking a depleted animal will help them feel better, aid in passing bound up urates and fecal matter, aid in getting 5 or so layers of shed off and help with giving them the drive to drink. A good long soak is something many dehydrated and almost desiccated animals will get both physical and therapeutic benefit from.

Almost like us getting into a hot bath or hot tub when we ache. While it may sound like a load of bull, it is quite true and you see the animal begin to stir and drink when they hit the water. As they gain strength and start seeking out their humid hides and water bowls on their own, you no longer do this.

As for the dog food mush, it DEFINITELY has more water content than a rodent. Inducing both water and nutrition to a body lacking both is a good way to start on the path of healing.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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FR Jan 08, 2012 11:31 AM

Hi Cindy, yes that drunk fella was right, listen to the animal.

And congrats for your accomplishments you are a strong person. I think they recovered because if they didn't you would do something bad to them. hahahahahahahaha

Just kidding.

Heres the point. Under the conditions your working in, your method works for what your doing. To a point. Your saving an animal under X conditions in X conditions.

If you change the conditions, that what your doing is now obsolete. Wouldn't it be better to keep them in conditions that totally prevented what your treating them for? of course the answer is yes. Under those conditions the method of recovery is also different. Get it?

Monitors perish for reasons, what damange is beyond repair? Normally its kidney function, followed by liver function. Neglect causes failure in those two areas, normally.

So its these two areas that need attention.

In most cases, its the kidneys that are in trouble. Dehydration is the cause. The question is, is there damage to the kidneys or not.

What is critical for these animals is hydration. They need to be hydrated, then it needs to be determined if there is organ damage.Individuals with organ damage are pretty much history, no ones going to do a transplant. hahahahahahaha

The ones without kidney damage, can be hydrated using any one of several methods. They will recover.

These animals are the ones that LOOK like they were neglecked, as they are emaciated, skinny, etc.

Heres where theres confusion, individuals with organ damage that is repairable(can heal) do not require food, that only stresses the organs more. They require fluids until the damage has healed. Electolytes etc a vet can determine the proper oourse here.

Liver damage, well this one is tuff, as these individuals do not look neglecked and die fat and happy(looking) So they normally are not rescued.

THis is normally caused by lack of heat, the individual never reaches full operating temps, therefore the it cannot process energy well. Its a really dumb comflict as many say OVERFEEDING, but its not overfeeding on all but very old individuals, Its lack of metabolism. WHich is directly controlled by HEAT.

In humans the thyroid is the cause of a slow metabolism. We have a constant body temp. In reptiles, you cannot determine if the animal is not at full operating temps. This always cracks me up, sorry Cindy, it does, You feed a reptile and big meal and it goes to heat. WHY????????????? What happens if it cannot get to that heat??????????????? Cindy, I am laughing but its true. What happens. And not A or Z what happens in the middle?

Liver damage can also be caused by drugs and trama(kidney too)

If there is liver damage, then feeding only further stresses that damage. AGain brief, but close

The point is, if kept is normal successful conditions, these rescues only need hydration, then they take off LIKE A ROCKET.

I am now going to offend someone, I don't know who, but I hope its not you. hahahahahahaha

But if kept in average conditions, these animals need to be nursed back to health. I am not sure if folks like that or feel needed when doing that. But there is something that some folks need. You know, to feel like you worked at something and accomplished something with that nursing. Which is great.

The problem is, with varanids, they are FAST, at everything they do, if kept in optimal captive conditions or what is normal for them in nature. They recover QUICKLY and do not require nursing, that is their design.

I know i am a bit naive, but I do have my experiences, and all are not good. Which most do not realize. hahahahahaha

A couple years back, I reduced my collection, or it reduced itself. A flood occurred. Well I hope thats when this happened.

Well, a year later, I was walking up to my building and heard something scratching in an old breeder cage I had taken outside. It had been outside in the sun for a summer, temps up the the hundred and teens. And all winter, temps down to the teens. No food or water, the top was intact. Well there was a pair of ackies in there. They were alive and dehydrated. Short story, they were back to full function in days. My good friend Nate was a witness we cannot believe they survived that.

I wish that was the end, but I also found two male gouldi types that had been in a indoor cage for a year, without food or water. They too were back in full function within HOURS.

The point of all this crapola is, its a whole different animal, if they are allowed to be in conditions they are designed for. That is a WIDE heat range. When in that heat range, they recover faster then they grow, which is like a rocket.

Once hydrated, they can consume and assimlate rodent and all normal foods, immediately, unless there is SERIOUS organ damage, and if thats the case, all the dogfood in the world is not going to help.

I could go on and on, you know I could, hahahahahaha. The point is, your do what you do in a realistic way, only you are doing it, with both hands tied behind your back. You have handicapped yourself. Then found the best way to go from there.

Get rid of that handicap and allow the full force and evolution of the animal to help you. If you did, you would find your rescues to be much easier and different.

Monitors in nature, are neglected, tortured, dehydrated, etc, by the millions, yearly, Nature is a cruel keeper, but they are designed to return to health QUICKLY as soon as conditions return to normal. All without our help or assistance. Sorry for going so long. Cheers

Paradon Jan 08, 2012 03:49 PM

I don't think she's that bad of an animal keeper... I don't know why you keep making fun of other people.

PHFaust Jan 08, 2012 05:54 PM

>>I don't think she's that bad of an animal keeper... I don't know why you keep making fun of other people.

Frank isnt making fun of me. Frank is Frank. I dont take offense, because I engaged and told him he was wrong. Trust me, he gets out of line, I will call his wife and have her beat him.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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PHFaust Jan 08, 2012 06:03 PM

>>I don't think she's that bad of an animal keeper... I don't know why you keep making fun of other people.

To further dispel that I feel frank is picking on me (Since I am his dogged instigator in this thread), the two of us at the Chiricahua Desert Museum this summer.
Image
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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PHFaust Jan 08, 2012 05:53 PM

>> If you change the conditions, that what your doing is now obsolete. Wouldn't it be better to keep them in conditions that totally prevented what your treating them for? of course the answer is yes. Under those conditions the method of recovery is also different. Get it?

Frank darlin,
You are assuming that these are animals that are not given a wide range of temps, ranging from 70 to 145. You seem to assume that these are not animals that are given the patented Retes Racks. You also kinda assume these animals are ones that have not been given access to humid hides and water. See that is the mistake.
The most recent animal in my care (reminder for stats - 41" and 28 oz on intake) was 8 years old. Let me remind everyone reading this that this is in fact a black throat. Also let me mention, as he bit me several times, he was toothless. Not that this matters at all, because I have never seen a monitor chew. This is what I see in monitors. Not the lovely healthy robust perenties that I covet.
You also seem very hung up on the addition of dog food. IF you check all my posts, that is part of the diet equation. Even on the half dead dragging lil mofo that recently spent time with me, he was still getting mice, fish, eggs. Unfortunately I couldnt offer quail or chicks as I am currently out. Add to that, roaches, crix and mealworm. I love feeding larger monitors crix when they get mobile. It is like a little trip to the gym. I wonder, who did I learn that little tidbit from.
Now this is not the average rehab situation moving an animal from less than stellar care in a pet store (say with all the imported savys) but signs of severe neglect. The turn around time of animals offered the Wysong slurry is half that of the animals just offered water. It took me many years to succumb to using a dog food, and I admit, this is not your run of the mill dog food. It is solely meat, organs and water. Not that far from prey items, but much easier to digest
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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moe64 Jan 09, 2012 08:27 AM

I wish i had your class to be able to distance myself from my personal feelings(ego)and what from your experience has worked for you.Separating the two so you can be objective-this is where people are turned off from these forums.I admit i allow myself to get dragged in-remember it's about the monitors. Thanks Cindy

PHFaust Jan 09, 2012 10:42 PM

>>I wish i had your class to be able to distance myself from my personal feelings(ego)and what from your experience has worked for you.Separating the two so you can be objective-this is where people are turned off from these forums.I admit i allow myself to get dragged in-remember it's about the monitors. Thanks Cindy

HA! Thanks for that, but there was a bit of ego. Perhaps Frank is the only one who may have caught it.

There is a place for ego, but the attitude cant be there. It is the attitude that gets in the way.

Debate is healthy as long as we can keep debate to that and not fighting.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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moe64 Jan 10, 2012 07:06 PM

oh yes, i saw the ego LOL

FR Jan 09, 2012 03:02 PM

Hi My wonderful Cindy, hahahahahahaha Please, I am not assuming anything.

As a person who has worked with thousands of monitors, from fresh imports on their death bed, to females recovering from laying their 6th clutch in 11weeks. I practiced recovery on a daily basis.

Having said that, with proper support, that dog food, no matter how wonderful it is, is not needed, required or necessary. Which is all I am saying.

What you do is entirely up to you. But the problem is not actually you Cindy. Its other folks, like your starting to see, people love to have confirmation. So they will say, Cindy did it, or Gregg did it. You know used dogfood.

What they do is however different then what you will do. They will use whatever they find, and feed it all the time because its easy, then say, but Cindy did it.

On the otherhand, a mouse is a mouse ITs the same mouse, no matter when you get it or what brand, hahahahahahahaha They all contain EXACTLY whats required to take a monitor through superior growth and reproduction. Consider, growth, doubling or tripling their mass in a week, places a far greater demand on a diet then simple recovery. Also, a mounse is good for all occasions, recovery or on a regular basis.

But hey, its their monitors right Cindy!!!!!!!!!

PHFaust Jan 09, 2012 10:39 PM

>> What you do is entirely up to you. But the problem is not actually you Cindy. Its other folks, like your starting to see, people love to have confirmation. So they will say, Cindy did it, or Gregg did it. You know used dogfood.
>>
>> What they do is however different then what you will do. They will use whatever they find, and feed it all the time because its easy, then say, but Cindy did it.
>>

And that is why I will beat like a dead horse the need to choose ingredients carefully. A mouse may be a mouse may be a mouse, but a field mouse that brings in poison will still kill the monitor. I mean it is a mouse.

Trust me, I will beat the education horse harder than the hybrid horse could dream of being beaten.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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