Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sadly on January 24 my Savannah monitor of 5 years passed away from errors in husbandry. It has taken me this long to find it in myself to discuss it, But I feel very strongly about getting this paramount information out so that others may benefit from it.

This particular monitor was raised on a diet of primarily invertebrate foods, so the mythological "fatty liver disease" was not the problem. He was given 40 acres of prime country real estate to roam upon, so he was incredibly well exercised, his cage was located in my reptile room that is environmentally controlled to never fall below 80 degrees (F) and his basking area was maintained at 125-135 at all times except at night.

We never even knew anything was wrong until one day in November he started coughing, We took him to a vet for a checkup, and unfortunately this vet was not qualified to diagnose yet alone treat reptiles, and he incorrectly assumed that a Baytril regimen would cure this, and I foolishly believed him.

After 14 days of steady Baytril treatments, my monitor was not improving one bit, so we decided to find a different vet and we found Dr. Sanford who has two masters degrees in zoological medicine, and is reptile certified.

She did the blood work and found that his uric acid levels were off the charts, she prescribed a treatment for gout but also advised us that his chances for recovery were slim to none, as his internal body chemistry had been so far out of balance for so long that she believed that permanent organ damage had already set in.

After only three doses of his gout medication he began vomiting blood, then diarrhea set in and it became very clear that he was suffering in ways I hope I never have to witness again as long as I live.

The decision was made that putting him down was the only humane option available.

The official post mortem diagnosis was long term low level dehydration, a condition that is brought on by insufficient humidity in the enclosure, a fate that all too many Savannah Monitors suffer when kept in anything but ideal conditions.

In conclusion, If you have a Savannah Monitor (Or any other monitor lizard) you simply must have at least one accurate digital hygrometer installed in your cage, you must maintain the ideal humidity levels for the species you keep, or the Monitor will eventually die a very ugly death.

There must be substrate deep enough to support burrowing, if you do not follow this advice, I don't care how "healthy" your lizard may look, they are dying slowly inside. By the time symptoms manifest and become visible it's too late.

The laws of survival in the wild mandate that they remain vigorous and functional until their final moments or risk falling prey to the next predator up the food chain. Therefore even if you ASSUME your animal is doing fine, the hard cold truth is it may not be so.

Proper caging and proper humidity levels are the ONLY way to ensure a long and healthy life...

The attached photograph is hard to look at, so I will not embed it in this post, you may click the link and view it at your own discression.

www.chompersite.com/gout/neardeath.jpg

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and best wishes to all of you and your captive monitors!
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

Hi Wayne, I am so sorry for you loss.

But what occurred is exactly what I said would happen. And I said that because its so very common.

The problem is all the hogwash thats out there, like insect diet and fatty liver and many other ailments that vets have no idea what causes them.

Dehydration is without question a huge problem, and it your case, its not low levels. I believe all captive monitors are subject to undue dehydration. The reason is not humidity, Is water loss from prolonged exposure.

I hope you can understand this, These animals spend 90% of their lives in burrow with a midlevel humidity, aprox 50% to 60%, then they wedge in where there is very little air touching the skin.

ALso, drinking water in nature is NOT AVAILABLE, so they conserve water by staying in tight places and only gain water from their food. FOR A VAST MAJORITY OF THEIR LIVES. Of course seasonally a rain may allow them to fill up. But that cannot be counted on, so its not.

In captivity we heat AIR in cages and that HOT air raises and dehydrates all it passes over. So with hot spots, you actually create a dehydration machine. This is why we use low wattage bulbs very close to the basking area. SO you do not heat lots of air. ITs also why we use deep substrate, so the animals not only have a humidity mass, but can duplicate nature and stay sheltered in burrows.

In captivity, they can come out more because they feed on a regular schedule.

Heres the deal, you have reasons to think what you did was right, insects, exercise etc. So you were so confident.

The problem is, those are not whats killing the monitors.

AGain I told you your monitor was not right. And you did not believe me.

A healthy monitor does not act the way yours did. And its not about tame.

Try to understand this, how easy would it be for a dog or hawk to catch your sav? ANSWER please.

In nature and that is what they are designed for. They will not venture out unless they are at full operating temps. WHY, because nature is full of predators that make your dog or hawk seem like a liteweight. They have to operate at full speed.

How would you like to go for a walk when your body temps are 90F hahahahahahaha you would die.

The above is where the answer is, these animals must obtain full operating temps and avoid deydration.

That is what killed your monitor. It was not diet or exercise.

Please forgive me for being blunt, but we did go over this tooth and claw. I am very sorry for your loss. As I said, this has happened so many times before you.

You know, the nice healthy monitor DYING. As you found out, it may have looked healthy, but it wasn't.

And I am sorry for all that crap information thats out there. Good luck

When you are all done beating your chest like an ape, I may talk to you, but not until.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

Well then you can wait forever, I am an ape. Sorry for your loss, now you can go to heck. I have no need to talk to you, good luck. Bye

Traditionally speaking the term "ape" refers to non human members of the superfamily Hominoidea. Of course, more recently hominoida has been thought to include humans, as Benton did back in 2005. Previously, the group known as apes was divided into two further subgroups, those being the great apes(often capitalized quite ostentaciously, if I do say so...) and the lesser apes. Now if one were to impart the inclusion of humans, as was done within the more formal nomenclature of Hominoidea, that would implcitly classify good ole Frank as a Great Ape(please note and forgive the ostentacious use of such capitalization whimsy)

I hope you're not saying he's god... I don't like to joke around like that. Frank is a great guy, or so I've heard, but I still wouldn't joke around that way. Unless he had discovered a mathematical formula that describe everything in the universe and can predict the outcome of event like that autistic kid in that TV series. [laugh] other than that I don't think anyone knows everything...not even some of the smartest people.

How on earth did you get God out of that?

Guy is a good friend, a special friend. So he knows just how ape like I am.

I am pround to be considered a great ape. Somehow, I spend many years building great ape enclosures for many zoos. Heck if I know why, I would think they would have me build reptile enclosures. But they didn't, there must be a reason.

I am curious, how did you get God, out of what Guy said.

Lets see, long arms, kinda hairy, short neck, big chest, I can climb with ease, still do one armed pullups. I eat lots of fruit. I often just stare of strange people while squating down, and I release anger in a fury. Yup, a great ape! yea, god, no! Unless you have have watching to many "planet of the apes"

I think I may well see the "logic" path, one more prevalent in the previous millenia, that of the "evolutionary" progression as follows: Lemur-Monkey-Ape-Human-Pangolin( I love those crazy things)-Ultimate Supreme Being (all omniscient and all those other "omni-" based superlatives)(assuming such exists....the sole unverified element of the progression)-Iguana(yes,green
.I know, I know)-Lemur. Sure ya don't hear much of that THESE days,but this foundational perspective was surprizingly widespread back in the 1900's. So, Frank as god? That was not my intended insinuation, although had you. witnessed the Miracle of the Ringneck Spotting as I did, you might well wonder. Besides, everybody knows, god(assuming he exists.... I know,wrong forum) lives in Barstow under the name of some symbol like Prince used to do! Nah, all I'm saying is Frank is one heck of a Great Ape(please note and forgive all spurious use of capitals...) with an uncanny knack with both critters and interpersonal communication(!) And Frank, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "special....is it labor day already?

My last reply was uncalled for emotionally sparked.

after reading your post about four times over, I did realize that you may have been blunt, It's just your style.

However, I did see the useful information in there too.

My apologies for reacting like a tool.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

Hi Wayne, I`m pleased that you (quite quickly) realised that Frank R. was only trying to help you and others, he gave a great response...

Remove the personal jabs, and the content is good stuff.

He could have said the same damn thing with about 3 less sentences and it would have been an epic post.

I'm stopping while I'm ahead here.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

What in the heck is the matter with you. Should I send you a rough draft so you can edit it for your own satisfaction. You selfcentered dip squat, I took an effort to help you. Again, good luck, and go to heck. find your help somewhere else
Bye

You keep attempting to make me out as the bad guy. Which is odd considering, you just allowed your monitor to die, after being warned that would happen, and for the exact reasons it died.

Sir, I am not the bad guy, you are the bad guy. Your the one who is so self centered you refuse to listen. All your BS about how I say something. I told you plain and simple,

Yep just like you listened to the help others offered you and piled up some dead lacies.. so You can join me in heck and we'll we can rot together.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

And you lost your mind, I did really well with lacies.

But there is a point here, I have lost monitors, there is nothing wrong with that. Just not from lack of simple basic care like you did.

ALso, early on, I learned how to avoid what you did. Before me, there was no understanding of the problems occurred for lack of normal metabolism in varanids. All those simple malidies were blamed on out of context situations. Now we know better, but your not a WE.

Heck, I lost a flavi this week, she was 16 years old, I hatched her, I just hatched her first clutch from last year, and have two more clutches incubating, due to hatch soon. Hmmmmmmm yea, you and I are the same. Sir, stay away from monitors, get a ball python or something.

JjWe've all done in poor unfortunates prior to coming to greater awArenesses. Its not always so simple, that of relinquishing concepts held as truths often fr for many many years. And without a larger sample group it is harder to coellesce(sp?) sufficient observations to gain a foothold on the trends of event and effect. I know when I first heard some of the whack-assed ideas this one old cook out in the desert was tellin me to try I thought he was insane. Well whup my dog and put the lizard eggs in the 'bator, that sand blasted goanna rancher was right! So I did my best to study, learn and integrate that which I could. After all...are we all not but glorified cage cleaners bouncin' our asses off that boulder that just moved?"Ahhhhh...most astute, young lizard-hopper"
Guy

Quite the contrary to you sir, I'm diving in head first, full throttle, and working with facts, verifiable, documented facts.

Your hypothesis and extrapolations of such facts are jibberish...

If success is measured by dead animals, then you are truly the king of kings.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

FR can dish out quite a tongue lashing but at the same time he's dropping gold in the form of knowledge. When you study fight or flight in humans FR is a clear cut case of fight. He's hard on issues and as a side he's hard on people.

It took alot to admit your mistake in husbandry and in my experience I try to learn something new every day but I learn in leaps and bounds from mistakes that I make. I'm sorry for your loss...

Chris

I believe hot air can hold more moisture than cold air. That's why it's dryer in winter. The problem is not the air it's the high wattage heatlamp. The radiant heat and infared ray cause the water molecules to excite and evaporate...I could be wrong on this one on the details. But This is more evident in open top cage. The cage dry out very quickly.

Hi Paradon, Nice, but the actual problem does not need a physical discription. All people need to understand is, It occurs.

I know, I know, but folks get all caught up in discriptions and difinitions and forget its actually happening on a daily basis.

This is an easily fixable problem, What needs to be understood is not how hot air holds more H2O, but how physically and behaviorally varanids control and maintain hydration.

Its that old context thing. Its more important to understand the animal. Understanding both would be great, unfortunately, most don't understand the subject, the monitors. Muchless That other stuff.

Its odd, these days, you can goggle up anything, except decent information of monitors. hahahahahahahaha,

I'm sorry for what happened! Please accept my condolences!

Thank you kindly.

I have since overhauled my housing completely and have a new hatchling arriving soon.

The cave openings are circled... I have till next week for those roots to bind together, once it grows into a solid patch of sod, he can dig a tunnel, but it won't hardly hurt that grass.

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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

In the last photo, the lights appear to be very far away from the bask to achieve good hot basking temperatures (135-140°F surface), which is also important to the animals along with humidity and hiding issues in the ground.

Hi Wayne,

Sorry for your loss.

Can you get a shot of the top of the enclosure, specifically any air vents that the cage might have? Thanks.

Will

In favor of a properly set up tightly sealed enclosure that has been holding a steady ` ambient humidity for weeks without any watering, misting or humidifiers.

The humidity inside the burrows is close to ™ (the digital hygrometer blanks out, it's so high)

Substrate temps are 72 degrees, ambient air temps are 85 degrees, and basking is 140 degrees.

I will post some pictures soon.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

No Chest pounding here. Thank you for sharing your story and I am sorry for your loss.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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