Reptile & Amphibian Forums

THE WINNERS AND LOSERS

There are many petty folks on this forum that are concerned about winning or losing. He wins, no the other wins, bla bla bla.

The reality is, Crocdoc is a winner. And I am also a winner, we both have produced many lacies. Which again means, we are both winners.

So who are the losers, not us! its those that get confused and FAIL with their monitors. Those are the losers in a human sense.

Even more importantly, the monitors that fail are the real losers.

What keeps me away from this forum is that, why on earth do you petty folks have to make it about people and winners or losers. Particularly when you have no concept who or what the losers are.

Some folks really have no clue, like Gregg and his FR's method. I have explained a million times, I have lots of methods, I am not stuck to one or the other, I will use nest boxes if needed, or outdoors, or indoors, or indoor outdoor, or dirt, or leaflitter, or plastic boxes, or wooden boxes. I have lots of experience with all of those methods.

I do not claim to be smarter then anyone, I just have results. The smartest thing I did was build a facility that included all the options.

The dumbest thing I do is report results to people who have not concept how to understand the results. So yes, I am the dumb one here.

That said, If you are trying to nest lacies, I would recomend using a method that has worked in captivity, deep leaflitter, a nest box made out of wood(George Horn style, he did that way before crocdoc) Hollow logs(a natural wooden box) or deep warm soil. All these have been successful.

Which one you choose, is up to you. Why you folks want to make it about people, well I think thats dumber then me reporting results. Good luck and keep at it.

Thanks Krusty for teaching me to post pics

Hi FR,
I have always been pro whole cage nesting due to results I have seen with my ackies. I have run across a small issue recently and would be curious what your input would be. I have varanus salvadorii and have recently started to remove all the dirt from the cage because I plan to move soon. I have already found at least one clutch of eggs that I missed in the cage (hell to find anything in a 10x13 shed with 10-30in of dirt). What would be a good medium for varanus salvadorii when I start over. I tried nest boxes which were rejected (trash cans, large tubs, -open tops, full, side entrances, etc).
Just thinking of ways to pin point my croc eggs in the future (dirt/sand mix, leaf mix, or ?) I know you have worked with them and I believe you told me at one time that you guided Stan Chiras.
Cheers Dustin

I did indeed have discussions with Stan, but did not actually work with him.

A problem with whole cage nesting in large cages is indeed finding the eggs, if you do not see them nest.

I will say, after some experience, or in your case, hard lessons, you can fairly accurately perdict where they will put the eggs.

I used deep leaflitter, like with lacies, but I have had a friend also have nesting success with deep dirt, although his eggs did not hatch.

One thing I noticed with one of our females was, she would urinate on the nesting area. Which was not normal for her.

Also, I recomend building cages where ease of access is addressed. If you intent to breed larger varanids, make the cage so its easy to remove the substrate, well at least easier. hahahahahahaha. Good luck

FR:" That said, If you are trying to nest lacies, I would recomend using a method that has worked in captivity, deep leaflitter, a nest box made out of wood(George Horn style, he did that way before crocdoc) Hollow logs(a natural wooden box) or deep warm soil. All these have been successful."

There, was that really that hard to say? My original post was that I think it's a good thing to add a heated nest box for breeding lace monitors - not to replace the deep substrate (which I think is good for monitors in general, anyway). Had you said the above, it probably would have stopped there, but instead we've had pages and pages of to-ing and fro-ing, with everything from denials that wild lace monitors nest in termite mounds to the old 'results' chest-beating, pissing-contest rant to accusations of repeated success being 'boring'.

You say that what keeps you away from this forum is that people want to make it about individuals and winners and losers, but the reality is that what keeps most people away from this forum is you wanting to make everything about individuals and you trying to make it about winners and losers. More specifically, about you having to be the winner. Everything everyone does is wrong, what you do is right. There can be no information exchange, information has to flow in one direction - from you to everyone else. I (as well as several others) stopped posting here years ago because every thread seemed to end up exactly as this one has (with the added bonus of the moderators jumping in and removing selected bits of the thread). Normal conversation was, and is, impossible, unless people are kowtowing to you. It gets old really quickly.

And yes, I was aware that Hans-Georg used nest boxes long before me (as did many people in Australia). I've never claimed to have pioneered it. Possibly the only thing I've added to the concept is thermostatically controlled heating and a couple of other minor tweaks, but I probably wasn't the first to use those, either.

Hi Crocdoc, first, its not now or ever has been about chest beating. It may have been for you, but not me. And I fully understand you not understanding that. For instance, is it chest beating for you to show your beautiful offspring?????????? No, why?

Then why is it chest beating for me? The point is, I have and had results long before you kept your first lacie. Then you came along with the termite mound thing. While that is great, Lacies have more nesting abilities then termite mounds, as in, THEY ARE NOT OBLIGATE TERMITE MOUNT NESTERS. They can and do have other abilities, both in nature and in captivity.

When I started with varanids, two fellas, Dennis King and a Vet from Canada, sent me tons, and I mean tons of papers on varanids. Included in those papers were several wild lacie clutches. They were nests found in hollow limbs. ALso there was mention of termite mounds. I was well aware of that long before you came along.

As a logical person, why on friggin earth would I contimplate termite mounds, we simply do not have them or that species here. I have to work with LACIES, here in the states, at my place in the states(conditional and situational) So if they required termite mounds, then I would be stuffed.

So, we offerred hollow limbs and deep soil and deep leaflitter. We have a few nestings in or close to hollow limbs, but many many deep leaflitter nestings, IN ALL CASES we offerred both. A hollow limb is a VERSION of a wooden nest box and other choices.

Of course having visited Mr. Horns at his house and seeing his setup, I did attempt wooden nest boxes, but the other offerings were what was used. Thats is history, not theory.

All in all, I recomend what HAS WORKED BEST FOR ME, as that is my experience. It would not be wise to recomend what does not work best for me, would it?????? Its not wise to recomend some method based on termite mounds, when you and others will not put termites in your house or reptile buildings. hahahahahahahaha

AS you mentioned, Lacies do not use mounds without termites, so any mention of termite mounds is useless in captivity.

About nest boxes, yes, you can use them, but as you know, they have to be setup just EXACTLY RIGHT. IS THAT SO? And setup right means, in the conditions you are in. The conditions in Sydney do not relate to here, not in the least.

ALso, when BEGINERS ask about nesting, do you really think they will understand how to set up a nest box, exactly right?????? How could they, they have no experience, they are beginers. Sir, your advantage was, they are in your yard, and many mates keep them around you. Most here do not have that advantage.

For instance, if I wanted to breed gilas, it would not be a problem. I see them, watch them copulate, nest, etc. all in nature. Right here.

On the otherhand, whole cage nesting not only offers more choices, including the exact choices you offer with a box, but is far more forgiving to the keeper, there is more room for error. Which is why I normally recomend it.

In reality, I have recomended nest boxes, but not over the internet where I have no idea of what the actual situation is, I must know that conditions will support next boxes. Which are mainly in cooler climates where the mass temps are fairly low.

I would still love to hear about your results, and surely there is reason.

I wrote this yesterday, but was timed out and lost it. You and I both know, there is far more to this then nesting. Its THAT HUSBANDRY plus nesting that you and I could have some great discussions.

ABout chest beating, I have been breeding reptiles since 1962, and many many species, its not chest beating. When asked about a species I have experience with, the results are a resume, Its to allow the reader to understand the level of experience. As you know, many here talk out their bums and have NO experience. They think reading is experience. Or they are the ones chest beating.

One last thing about your "obligate" termite mound nesting, while I understand, they do nest in mounds, your theory about being obligate is based on one assumption that I suggest you test. And that is, overwintering. Your assuming they cannot overwinter at lower temps. Which is questionable, as we had them overwinter outside here and its much much colder here then in Sydney. With no harm to the eggs. The eggs overwintered and hatched. Dang see what experience does, it messes up everything.

So, yes, I do have reason to disagree with you. I have seen laices nest in other ways, both in nature and in captivity.

The real problem is right here, if you read the above, its about varanids in captivity, this is not a natural history forum. Its about what works in captivity. First and foremost.

My bet is, you and I would be great mates in the field.

You know I love natural history, but you do have to seperate that from what actually works in captivity. In your case, you have a heated wooden box. Not a termite mound, that has worked for you.

I have had hollow logs and deep leaflitter work for me, John had deep heated soil work for him. Theres nothing that indicates "obligate" in captivity.

What I find puzzling is, why don't you try all the methods, as I have, then I would be more confident in your recomendations. Also, I would be more confident if you tested many females, as we find each female has can make different choices.

So lets move on and compare results and forget about that chest beating. To me, thats a useless waste of time. I am now, and always have been interested in results and not theory or chest beating.

It is sad, the varanid world is so full of theory and chest beating, and it is because of lack of success. Which makes it very sad that two individual people like you and I cannot compare results and discuss different methods of reaching similar goals. Cheers

Dumb KS timed out my first reply so lets try this again.
I was going to stay out of the conversation between Frank (FR) and Dave (Crocdoc) because I have respect for both of you and really have no business commenting on again against either of you due to my limited success. Dave has always been there for me on the forums and at the same time I have always looked here and v.net to see what Frank had going on. Staying open minded leads to new ideas, improvements, etc. More then one way to skin a cat or so they say.
You both offer sound advice to novice and advanced keepers. You both say whole foods and proper setup is key to success. You both measure success through your monitors/goannas life events and health. You both agree that true success is getting the monitor to conditions that females can nest, lay eggs, hatch eggs, recover and be in health to do it again. You both are in it for monitors and not for others and their feelings. Dave is generally more clear cut and to the point. Frank makes you think for yourself and says this is what I do. You both are old dinosaurs compared to a young pup like me
Im not sure why we are stuck on this termite mound discussion. You both know it is the conditions inside an active mound that makes it suitable for nesting. Regardless whether it is a termite mound, rotting log, or whatever that if a female finds the conditions with stable temps/humidty/ and proper medium that she will lay there. In captivity we should be focusing more on the conditions then whether it is in a nest box, termite mound, dirt on the cage floor etc. Nest boxes have to be more accurate and whole cage offers more choices and you both would agree.
Frank and Dave on the same forum discussing and offering different points of views is exactly what the hobby needs to move forward. Of coarse Justin aka Krusty is always a good addition. We could call it the big 3. Sorry for mentioning you Justin but you are a big player these days
Lets move on to pics of goblin, love rug conversations (I would love to hear FRs take on how your lace monitors mate on the same rug outside of their enclosure time after time), and move on to discussion of medium/temps you guys use whether it be in a box, ground, hollow log or whatever.
Most importantly I have two ackie heads poking from what I thought were bad eggs

Gator, let these grown men talk. I'm learning plenty and don't even keep lacies or even any other varanus sp anymore. Keep the fanboyisms to a minimum. You're wrong when you suggest Frank knows its all about simulating the prime conditions found inside an active termite mound. He just stated that it doesn't mean jack because nobody can create an active termite mound in a monitor enclosure. Still missing the point from where I sit.

Rick you may notice neither Frank nor Dave responded to me because I talk to both on the forums. There is zero fan boy crap here and dont talk down to me with out knowing about me. Tell me what have you learned?
That lace monitors nest in termite mounds? Google can tell you that. That nest boxes are not termite mounds? You have completely let their topics slip past you. If you want to learn real knowledge then you would have seen that I suggested they converse about temps/humidty/ and medium that females like. Look at Dave's new post "Lace nesting simplified" that is exactly the converstions we need. You will look further and see FR's response which is also on topic. That is a great post with great responses. Also look below and you see jobi's response to this. If anything I have hit the nail on the head and watch how they shift topic eventually and discuss that it is the temps, humidty, and medium that is important. Its already being posted

I didn't respond to the previous posts not because I agreed with you, but because I didn't think some of it was relevant and didn't want to go off on yet another tangent, given that you don't keep lace monitors and haven't seen them in the wild. You were guessing.

For example:

Gatorhunter"Regardless whether it is a termite mound, rotting log, or whatever that if a female finds the conditions with stable temps/humidty/ and proper medium that she will lay there."

The thing is, they don't lay in rotting logs or 'whatever' in the areas from which our lace monitors come because the eggs would not survive the winter if they did so. Those areas do not have stable temperature and humidity. Consequently, I disagree with you there. They clearly don't just 'happen upon' termite mounds while digging around looking for suitable temperature and humidity - the behaviour is widespread enough to suggest they seek the mounds out instinctively. They'd probably nest elsewhere if forced to by the absence of termite mounds, but the chances of the eggs surviving would be slim in most of their range.

Gatorhunter"In captivity we should be focusing more on the conditions then whether it is in a nest box, termite mound, dirt on the cage floor etc. Nest boxes have to be more accurate and whole cage offers more choices and you both would agree. "

Again, I don't agree. I think that a nest box plus whole cage substrate offers more choices than just substrate. That's been the point of this whole series of threads. There appears to be a link between lack of a nest box option and females dying of reproductive failure.

Interestingly, after the discussion about Hans-Georg Horn using nest boxes I went back and re-read his paper about the very first breeding of lace monitors outside of Australia. I have spoken to Hans-Georg about lace monitors and nest boxes before, particularly while standing in front of his lace monitor enclosures many years ago, a few years after I had started breeding them myself. However, I had forgotten the details of the paper. It turns out that Hans-Georg had provided the female with a large amount of substrate, but when he saw her constantly digging and not laying he put in a nest box, placed under a lamp for heat. She dug into it within three hours and started laying.

Actually Dave we do agree
Just playing devils advocate to coax the answers that were needed instead of back and forth. I'm more curious to get you and FR on to why instead of back and forth on whether they do since that is proven.
The fact that termite mounds maintain more stable temps for the year. 200 plus days just to get to the hatching point means the female needs a spot that will be good for the whole year (Agree?). That would be hard to do in any rotting tree or log unless it is in the tropics where the temps do not change drastically (Agree?) . Lace monitors are not the only ones know the take advantage of using termite mounds (proven).
Hence why I didn't focus on where but more on stability of temps and humidty that you aim for in your nest box which does not have termites. I for one cannot vouch/deny etc for anything that varius does in the wild or captivity other then what can be read.

I have tried nest boxes and have not had success with them. Do they work..yes (proven) should we offer more choices also..yes (proven). Why? Each monitor is an individual and have their own ideas on perfect (agree?)

Trying to switch the focus off of whether they use termite mounds (proven) to why would they want to. Temps, humidty and more stable year around.

Was I aiming to get onto a topic like you posted above.. YES!!!! WHY? I plan to reconstruct my croc cage soon and I was more curious on the humidty, temps, etc for better nesting options in captivity without moving in a bunch of termites in

P.S I plan to use both nest boxes and heated substrate with the same material and both will have heat pads and thermostats and I will aim for similar temps as yours.
Cheers
Good read above btw

Okay, fair enough.

You've got my email address (I think), so if you ever want more details on the nest box drop me a line.

I still do and may just take you up on that. Can I get it in supersize (read in your other topic)

This forum is so hard to follow that we can stay on your other post instead of dropping this one down .

I had started to type out a detailed response to everything you've said in your post, but then realised I wouldn't be saying anything I haven't already said before in this discussion so there's no sense in me typing it all out again.

I'll reduce my comments to a small handful of things, to keep it simple.

FR:"
The real problem is right here, if you read the above, its about varanids in captivity, this is not a natural history forum. Its about what works in captivity...
I have had hollow logs and deep leaflitter work for me, John had deep heated soil work for him. Theres nothing that indicates "obligate" in captivity. "

No it's not a natural history forum. I presented the information on lace monitors nesting in termite mounds to explain why I used a nest box. If you'd stuck to just methods that worked in captivity rather than tried to tell me that termite mound nesting isn't the 'norm' in the wild, the termite mound part of the discussion would have stopped a long time ago.

Your stance, that termite mound nesting is not the 'done thing' in the areas from which our respective lace monitors originate, comes entirely from what you think works in captivity. I have been questioning just how well that 'works', though, for you keep presenting your results and John's results as successes, yet one thing you both have in common is females dying of reproductive failure. Even if we ignored what did or did not go on in the wild, those results speak volumes.

You say you've tried nest boxes and they've failed, but you've also said this, which suggests you think it's the box rather than what's in it that's important:

FR:"A hollow limb is a VERSION of a wooden nest box and other choices. "

A hollow limb is like a dead termite mound. It's just a box. Useless for a lace monitor in an area where winter cold can kill eggs, which is why they don't use dead termite mounds.

FR:"
What I find puzzling is, why don't you try all the methods, as I have, then I would be more confident in your recomendations. Also, I would be more confident if you tested many females, as we find each female has can make different choices. "

My female has had access to deep substrate and numerous hollow logs her entire life, as do the females of mates of mine that use nest boxes. That's what's funniest about this whole conversation - my stance all along has been to add a nest box as an option, not for it to replace deep substrate (or hollow logs for roosting, for that matter). All of this stubbornness and fighting about an added option that I happen to think is quite important. My reason for suggesting it is reflected in our respective results (which, by the way, I have given in two posts now and in one I have asked you for some details of yours, so I don't understand why you seem to skip over those posts and keep asking for results). Females dying of reproductive failure is not a good result in anyone's books and (mixing metaphors here) to ignore that elephant in the room while discussing nesting results is like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.

Hello Frank
I’ve stayed away from these forums a few years now…not because of the fighting’s and arguments (as you know I like these) no I’ve stayed away because of lack of progress from keepers, some just keep turning in circles…I do read whenever I have time, in fact I’ve read not long ago that you tested (A NEST BOX) for flavis…couldn’t resist typing in caps for my friend David lol…anyway I see both of you guys doing well and this is all that matters.
Also when I read your questions about southern vs northern lace…I immediately compared them to the only similar thing I knew, hog island boas to mainland boas…after a few generations hogs grew fast and big as mainland boas…so is it about being insular? Or is it about temps? Needless to say hot temps with little food =dead.
Ps. wonder if larger hogs produced more babies???