Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'd like to ask people's opinions about monitor lizards being used for food and leather. It is ok to eat them and use their skins? Is it better or worse to catch them for the pet trade than to catch them for eating and wearing? Thanks for your opinions!
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Mampam Conservation

Are you talking about natives or the general public as I would give two totally different responses.
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John Light
JPLReptiles@gmail.com
(954) 903-8061

Hi Daniel and John
Somewhere out there, there are natives with Monitor skins on and a belly full of Monitor meat, while collecting Monitors for the pet, leather and exoctic meat trade.

Monitor meat and skins to the natives have been staples for hundreds of years (probably longer), to me not a problem.

Collecting meat and skins for wealthy non-natives and for the pet trade is a big problem, especially for some of the small island species.

Just my 2 cents.
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

Yes everyone should be allowed to eat them and make wallets from them. Look at the american alligator once on the verge of extinction now there is abundance. We farm them there is a market for them. Not saying I agree with it but the tactics that are used to save the wild tigers and other endangered wildlife have failed miserably. If you allow people to take them from the wild during certain times and for a hefty fee the poachers become the protectors.

I hate to agree with this, but farming them might actually help conserve animals, after see the video.

Please do tell how they're going to properly farm bengalensis, niloticus, salvator (among others) for the skin/meat trade. It's not nearly as easy as farming Alligators; I can tell you that.

Conservation by commercialization has been pitched for years but it DOESN'T work for everything.

The climate over there certainly does favor this sort of things, and plus the construction labor over there are really cheap...way, waaay, cheaper than over here. They don't have to worry about keeping them too cold. In Thailand everthing grows well because of the climate and great soil, I believe.

"Please do tell how they're going to properly farm bengalensis, niloticus, salvator (among others) for the skin/meat trade. It's not nearly as easy as farming Alligators; I can tell you that.

Conservation by commercialization has been pitched for years but it DOESN'T work for everything."

I never said it would be easy. Monitors are not as easy to keep as alligator I would agree on that.

At the same time don't you think its true that these environmental groups are actually making it worse by making the products illegal? People in third world countries do not care about the latest socialist propoganda from Europe and North America.

It makes one wonder do these environmentalist groups as a whole acutally care about the animals they want to save? Or do they care more about conrtolling people, getting money etc? I mean why do they embrace failed policies over and over?

The problem with monitors is, they eat protein, and thats valuable in poor economys. So the protein is worth more then the monitors. Cheers

How expensive is it to breed rats and mice? You have experience, don't you?

Grow up paradon, why would I help you with anything, I did read what you posted about me on that other forum, Your a very twofaced individual. So you can go learn on your own. Good luck with that.

"Grow up paradon, why would I help you with anything, I did read what you posted about me on that other forum, Your a very twofaced individual. So you can go learn on your own. Good luck with that."

If he didn't like you he wouldn't talk to you so much. I was challenging his claim that his native people are Thai not starting a [bleep] throwing contest.

Why would anybody make up something like that? I don't understand your question and why you ask me this question. And I thought my screen name would have answered that question already. My real name is Sripol Asanasavest and I was born in Bangkok, Thailand...originally the part of Bangkok that was born was called Samutprakan, which is home to the Mon people that live in Thailand. Now, the town Samutprakan has become part of Bangkok. My paternal grandmother was half Chinese... My dad was an engineer that worked for an American multinational company. they petition for him to come to work in America and they also paid for my dad's education. My mother graduated from Chulalongkorn University and has a degree in French language. My dad's name is Chainarong, my mother's name is Nittaya and her maiden name is Jaroonpan.

...hahhahahhahaha!

Im pretty sure this would not work so well with monitors.

the native people in my country eat them out of necessity. It's one thing to catch them and eat them and it's oen thing to catch a freaking crap load of them for the pet trade. I think that's just a waste them going to the pet trade. I hear a lot die during the shipping process. At least the local put them to good use by eating them.

I think it's just sad wearing them as clothes. Unless they set up a monitor farm and breed them for the leather. I guess it depends on where you get the skin, whether from a farm or wild ones.

"the native people in my country eat them out of necessity. It's one thing to catch them and eat them and it's oen thing to catch a freaking crap load of them for the pet trade. I think that's just a waste them going to the pet trade. I hear a lot die during the shipping process. At least the local put them to good use by eating them."

What native people in Salida, Central Valley, California eat monitors just curious?

Thailand... I don't even know why you ask the question. It's a common thing. They make delicoius monitor salad with curry flavor, I hear.

http://www.turtleforum.com/forum/upload/index.php?showtopic=144886

On various forums I see you on you look white to me and you also say your from California. So it is reasonable for me to assume you are a typical white guy from America and not a Asian or whatever your latest claim is.

I don't know why you even think that. I moved here in 1994 and I just got naturalized 5 days ago. Just becaue I write good English does not mean I'm white. Do all Asian in America speak bad English. and my counsin who is half German and half thai speaks 8 different languages, including Japanese, Chinese and Thai.

And i like to say I'm sorry for what happen last time. I wasn't feeling myself. I'm bipolar, so what I said back then, I wasn'at myself. I'm terribly sorry for being a jerk to you!

Hi Daniel

Your question is vague and can be very misleading.

I would also think this question, or at least the way you phrased it, would be well below your level of experience and education.

For instance, theres nothing we can do about varanids being collected and consumed by native peoples, but countries can pass laws against collecting or keeping.

It also appears all the laws and seudoprotection does very little to nothing, to stop habitat destruction, which is the real problem. Which is the base for why I think your question is naive and below your level of education.

So again it appears to me, you "may" just be attempting to start fights and arguements, which is the only reason you have posted here in the last number of years.

So in an attempt to address your question as if it was an honest question. Here goes'

It depends on many many things, like species, strenght of populations, farm raised, etc.

As mentioned, native peoples will consume them and will not be stopped from doing so, right or wrong.

Civilized peoples really should only take limited numbers from nature and produce them in captivity for whatever consumption they choose, hides, meat or pets.

Also the word "pets" is out of context as varanids are rarely pets, it can happen, but its extremely rare. They are more like many captive animals, just captives to be watched, not petted or recieved love from, like dogs that return our love.

They are more like tropical fish or many species of birds. Again, in most cases and particularly most indo species.

There are indeed some individual monitors that display a bond to a keeper and could well be called a pet. But again, thats rare.

Rare is in context to the actual numbers of monitors imported compared to the actual number that become pets.

In reality, its rare(based on numbers) for wild caught to even survive over two years in captivity.

In recent years, Farm raised has become a reality with some species. That would be a very satisfactory method for the "pet trade" or the promotion and support of truely captive bred.

The actual problem is civilize people like you and I' cannot seem to do anything right, We are either A or Z, without concern with all the actual realistic choices in the middle.

There are lots and lots of ways to do this right, but we are just too petty to actually do that. So in reality, the right way for us to address this issue will most likely remain elusive. Best wishes and have a great day

I hate to agree with him, but Frank is right. You can only do so much if the habitat is not protected and then you have the govnerment themselves who has a hand in poshing the animals, who are willing to look the other way for a price. I think the solution lies somewhere inbetween.

Hi Mampam,

This is a question appealing to the sensitive side of monitor keepers, so your answer in my home is "frog no" you can't skin and eat my lizards. But, we all know the real problem is bulldozing the habitat- in forests, cutting all the trees out and flattening the land. The remaining animals are then killed out by the people(dogs,cats)tending the land. There are situational surviving species but for the most part, that is how it goes. If the habitat is maintained and supported, it hurts nothing to selectively collect a reasonable number of a species. But again, preserving and maintaining the habitat then determining real numbers annually. The problem is you get the sensitive opinions and on the opposite side the greedy opinions. The numbers collected need to be supported by real insensitive, ungreedy science. Heck, there are even methods to increase species numbers by supporting them in areas of collection but the habitat must remain strong to do so... So Daniel, you are an intellectual- I have read your books and literature... How do you suppose this should be done effectively in the places you have been?

N/P

Np
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Mampam Conservation

I agree that this was a poorly asked question and as an academic myself I am surprised at how you worded it. That being said my guess is you were pushing more at "If the survival rate of captives is so low(for this discussion lets give it a theoretical 99% deathrate), how is that any better than exporting them for food and skins?"

Well as has been pointed out the bigger issue with the endangerment of these species is the destruction of their natural habitat. In a perfect world where their habitats were perfectly protected from further degradation and the damage that had been done was not irreparable yes a 99% death rate in the pet trade would roughly equate to the 100% death rate of foods and skin trade. However this is the real world and no matter how many lists we put these species on many of them will eventually become extinct and therefore that 1% matters and there is a difference, because that 1% can establish a captive population which is preferable on all counts to complete extinction.

Now does that mean its OK that the death rate is 99%? No. There should be changes to how these animals are exported and who they go to when they are. For the purpose of this discussion however, my opinions on policy are irrelevant.

Now if I am wrong about what you were getting at then I would go on to say I agree with a lot of what Frank and Mike said, you can do absolutely nothing about natives consuming these animals. It has been part of their culture for a long time and until the "modern" world kicked in and started doing its thing, these native populations were at a natural equilibrium with these animals evidenced by the fact they are not already extinct.

So my opinion is no the pet trade is not much better than the food and skin trade, but it is a little better. We should rather be focusing on how to improve the pet trade and lower that expected death rate, not try and abolish it altogether by claiming its no better than some other morally ambiguous trade.

Np

It is the same from a conservational standpoint. Perhaps different from an ethical perspective.

Should all be captive bred, nonetheless.

I don't think my education limits me to only asking academic questions, it was worded that way because I am interested in opinions and perceptions about monitor lizard leather and meat.
In my experience communities who collect lizards for skins tend to be Islamic, and consider the meat the be unclean, whilst communities who eat the lizards are usually unaware that the skins have value. So the ideal of lizards being used in ways that minimise waste rarely happens. It's always the case that it's the very poorest people who are catching lizards, whether it be for meat, leather or wildlife trade. As for the conservation, I only know of two studies that looked at the effect of leather trade on lizard populations and one that looked at the effects of wildlife trade. None of them found major problems, which is probably a testament to the high fecundity of monitor lizards. If somebody looked at the collection of gravid females in species endemic to small islands they might come to a very different conclusion...
Curiously in Thailand biawaks are considered foul animals; people don't like to say their name and certainly wouldn't eat them, but bengalensis are considered tasty. Nowt as queer as folk, as they say in Glossop.
Thanks for the responses.
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Mampam Conservation

Yes, you are right. it is a bad word if you cuss at someone saying baiwak, in Thai it is hea, which is a curse word. It's a pretty common cuss word, actually. [laugh]