Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey has anyone used that Kaytee Brand Paper Granule bedding for their hognoses? I figured it was light weight and small enough it'd be good to burrow in, just wondering if theres any concerns. Its this stuff: http://www.kaytee.com/products/softsorbent.php

Thanks!

paper bedding is absorbent, there fore contributes to problems caused by dehydration, which is chronic in captivity.

many of the bedding options on that site seem to be scented. I would avoid anything that has added scents which may irritate your hogs. generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with paper bedding. I would alter Franks comments slightly to say chronic dehydration CAN be a problem in captivity. especially if you live in Arizona lol hogs like things a bit on the dry side. just make sure they have fresh water available all the time and that they have no trouble shedding completely. if the shed doesn't come off in one whole piece, you might add a humid hide or look into a different bedding.

Dan

Sorry Dan, let me alter your comments, I have kept and bred snakes of many species, from Fla. to Washington to New Orleans, and here in Tucson.

About what hogs like, its true, they prefer dry and humid. As do most snakes.
If Dan would ask question why I say Chronic, I would answer with a logical answer.
The most simple is, hogs like many snakes, shelter in tight places where there is little air movement. Not for extended time in Open air, like in a high percentage of captive situations. In this case, hognose spend the vast majority of their lives in the ground like an earthworm. Finding areas that range from 50 to 60% humidity, for long term shelter. Which is a neutral humidity, but they do not expose their body to drying air. Even when they crawl on the surface, its more common after rains, mourning and evening when its humid close to the ground. And yes, and when hydrated, they will move across open areas.
About cages, cages are a unit of their own, they are not bound by state. In most cases, they are in rooms, in buildings, and all that reflects ambient humidity of the room. As a person who has worked in the construction field(mostly zoos) houses across the country are built with the same indoor materials that are not moisture tolerant. All will rot with high humidity. Which kinda tells you that across the country, indoors is fairly uniform, particularly in winter. Outdoors is another story. but then, I don't keep snakes outdoors. torts and lizards yes, not snakes.
I will be posting a fun test soon that deals exactly with this.
Lastly while working on a research grant, I was asked to critique, the herp department, so I researched death records of many zoos. A common trend was long term dehydration. In the public, screen lids, ventilation holes, heating and air conditioning of rooms, contribute to chronic dehydration. Talking with herp vets realed a trend of visceral and skeletal gout and kidney problems. part 1

If you are required to supply drinking water in a cage, then the animal is dehydrated. The vast majority of western and Mexican hognose in nature do not have access to drinking water. With the exception of a few times a year. Drinking water is a rare luxury in nature, So far, I have not seen any trend that wild hogs, seek open water to drink.
So Dan, I am sure you take great care of your animals, But before you say things, maybe try testing. My bet is, within five days, yours(and most others) will stop feeding due to hydration problems. Test it, it will not hurt them if after then stop feeding you water them. Consider, five days is a base, the number of days indicates the level of dehydration.
This test was put on my be a field biologist, bless his wicked heart. He asked If I could raise neonate pyros(we were in the field looking at pyros) without drinking water. Of I could not, but I did experiment until I did raise them to adulthood without ever drinking. About peer review, there is reason I do not go there. My field work is do understand how our snakes work in captivity. I have a different purpose. If you research my work in the captive area, you may find I had some influence, In fact, much of what you doing now, and how your doing it is a result that that work. Thanks

No need to write a bunch of paragraphs, let's keep this simple. Your claim was: dehydration is chronic in captivity.

You are there by claiming that all snakes in all captive situations are chronically dehydrated.

I im saying that dehydration CAN be a problem in captivity.

I think we can all see which is the more parsimonious claim.

Dan

I am mostly with Frank on this one. Dehydration IS a problem in captivity. The problem is, most snakes and lizards do not show signs of dehydration or to be more specific, they do not show signs that most keepers will pick up on. Even low levels of dehydration over time is detrimental and is perhaps why so many reptiles only live to a fraction of their potential.

I have noticed that offering even just a humid hide spot (which hogs will use frequently) they rarely if ever drink. In fact, I can not remember the last time I saw one of my hogs take a drink.

We seem to have derailed the issue a bit here, so let me reiterate for the person asking the original question: Yes.

The bedding is suitable. Make sure your snake has water, and/or a moist hide, and you won't have to worry about dehydration.

To clarify the comments of my fellow hognose lovers:

Offering them a moist hide, and offering them water are almost the same thing. Drinking water allows them to replace water that has been lost, and a moist hide allows them to slow the dehydration process.

In any environment, wild or captive, snakes are going to dehydrate as part of their natural biological processes and as a result of their environment. If the humidity is low, and the temperature is high, they will dehydrate faster. In response to dehydration they will A. drink water if it's available, or B. Seek a humid place to hide to conserve moisture until water becomes available. None of this has anything to do with the original question, and they are very basic concepts of how life on earth occurs.

I prefer having clean water available at all times, and a dry cage, because the dry cage allows their feces to dry out, and prevents bacteria, yeast and other nasties growing in the bedding. These things can and will lead to various illnesses.

I monitor the snakes for signs of dehydration, such as proper shedding, appetite, and digestion, and I make adjustments where necessary. (adding a moist hide, spraying the cage down, etc.)

This isn't really something that we need to argue about. It is basic husbandry, right?

Dan

I have no problem with being reminded about hydration problems, even if it is basic husbandry. I am more than capable of still screwing up basic husbandry. Hydration is a huge issue with captive snakes. (Another huge issue is underfeeding). I have raised several common colubrids from hatchling to adult without even giving them a water bowl. But, they are well fed and have lots of humind sphagnum moss to burrow into. Not just a handfull of moss in a cardboard box. I believe a well-hydrated area within the cage is more important than a water bowl for many species. Thanks. Good topic.

I've noticed that some of mine will drink the water dripping off the prey item before they eat it. For some reason all of mine seem to be very gentle feeders compared to what I see in many videos online.

I feed frozen thawed and thaw them out in hot water. I pull them right out of the water so they still have a heat signature. If I could figure out how to record while I feed I would post a video.

And yes they always have fresh water available. But when the bowl goes dry or gets close to being empty I notice some of them coiled in the bowls. The rest of the time they don't do that. It's almost like they are having a panic attack because the bowl is getting empty or they are signaling to me to get my ars in gear an fill them up...

Just a few interesting observations that I've noticed with mine. Anyone else see this kind of behaviour?

Great observations nasicus.

I have seen the same thing with my kings in the winter on occasion when I don't control ventilation enough. I interpret that as a state of mild, but chronic, dehydration. When corrected, the water bowl doesn't dry out and they are rarely if ever observed drinking. You might want to give this a shot, limit ventilation to the point where you don't have to frequently top off h2o bowls and see if you observe the same reactions to water. Its little tests like this that keep me learning and make the keeping part fun. Thanks.

Will

Yes. I've observed the exact same thing, mostly with Kings.

reako45

The key to understanding this is, the bowl going dry is the problem. And that problem is also effecting the snake. Your snake, by coiling in the water bowl is a behavior indicating, the snake is dehydrated. Again, I remind you, in nature, water bowls are rare to non existent. Their design is more about conserving water then replacing water. The reason is simple, There is very little opportunity to drink in nature with xeric species.
Your(all or most of us) normal response is to give it water, which unfortunately is a bandage fix. It temporarily controls the problem without fixing it. Drying air is the problem that can be fixed. Again, its not A or Z. Snakes can and do withstand low levels of water loss.
Heres a wicked scary way to think about this. Your snakes coiled in the empty water bowl. So that bowl has a water volume greater then the volume of your snake. The entire contents of that bowl dehydrated in a certain amount of time. I ask, how much water did the snake lose? Consider, the evaporation in the cage effects everything in the cage, including the snake. Not just the water in the bowl. End pt 1

By increasing water intake, your causing you captive to increase the amount of minerals it must process and increasing the uric acid levels in the blood stream, which puts pressure on the kidneys, then other organs. The actual question is, how long and to what degree can a snake tolerate this.
Again, their design to to seek higher humidity when dry and lower humidity when wet and a neutral when in balance. Long term shelters in nature are neutrals in the 50 to 60% percent range, but with little to no air movement. Your cages are indeed long term, which means, all you need is 50 to 60% and little air loss. ITs actually very simple.

According to several weather data sites, my average daily humidity is roughly 80.97% humidity.

That does not sound like a fun place to live. We have high humidity for about 2 months a year. Once it was 116F and it rained. That was not fun.

This is directly from the Long Island herp society care sheet for western hogs.

"Water - Clean water must be available at all times in a bowl that is heavy enough that the snake will not constantly tip it over. With hognose snakes, particularly the western species, it is important to keep the cage dry. Humidity is thought to possibly cause respiratory infections in hognose snakes, an illness that is often fatal."

Yup, poor information. The key to understanding reptiles is, humid and dry. Which is what they prefer in nature.
Oddly that is a hard concept for people to understand.
Oddly again, people do not want to understand it.
Even water snakes and gardersnakes, get water blisters if kept wet. Which is not humid, its wet.

If folks wanted to understand it, they would ask questions instead of believing a simple out of context statement.
The fact is, its not about humidity or high humidity, its about water loss. As in, how much is evaporating and leaving the cage. This varies with temps, type of cage and if its heated or not. and to what degree its heated.
Simple put, if you put a container of water in your cage, a lid with lots of small holes in it, and measure how much water is lost daily, weekly, monthly, it will in many cases scare you.
If you have very little loss, then theres no problem, but if your losing amounts equal to the volume of the snake, its a real problem. If you take that container and make the sides in once levels, you will get a great idea as to how much water is being evaporated. Then consider, that is happening to your snake.
The reality and what Dan dismisses is, Snakes control water loss in nature to a very small degree, the reason is, water is precious in most cases. Particularly for hogs which occur in super draining soils(doesn't puddle) Anything more then what is within their natural limits, causes long tern chronic issues, Extreme dehydration causes immediate destructive health issues. In the middle is easy, in the middle. Build up of uric acid crystals in the kidneys and urethra.

"Your(all or most of us) normal response is to give it water, which unfortunately is a bandage fix. It temporarily controls the problem without fixing it. Drying air is the problem that can be fixed. "

Isn't "fixing" the drying air a bandage fix as well? After all any husbandry that we provide is purely artificial.

If understand your logic, any thing that we do in captivity is temporarily controlling the problem without fixing it. The only real "fix" to any husbandry issue is to put them back in their native habitat to remove any bandage fix.

That is that A or Z thing I talk about. In this case, a fix is easy.
To bandage is to attend to the symptoms of a problem. A cure is to fix the problem, then you have not symptoms.

Our system of government promotes attending to symptoms. It does so because the pharmaceutical industry Is a strong lobby that pretty much controls government. They make money of drugs that relieve symptoms. So selling drugs over long periods, is more profitable then actually selling you a drug that cures the disease.
The point here is, its free and easy to cure the problem. If there is one.
The problem is so so simple, poor cage design. Ventilation is based on poor conditions to start with, then all this stuff is done to fix a problem that is a people problem and not a snake problem. First off, snakes live deep in things like the earth, hollows etc, and do not need or want ventiliation, they breathe just fine. To the point of using the oxygen produced from bacteria in soil. So ventilation is anthropromorphic. Its about you. end part 1

They key is again water loss, not humidity or wet or mold etc.
If you limit water loss, you simply do not need to add water often. That is, if the snakes are not dehydrated, they do not need to drink. And if water loss is controlled, not much is evaporated out of the water bowl. All things are the same, only less work. If you keep adding water to a cage without lots of ventilation, It gets wet quickly and fungus and mold are a problem. Cure, add less water. Signs, if you have condensation on the glass, humidity is too high.
I have never purchased or made a cage that did not have air leaks. Even sweater boxes. All leak air between the lid and the box, or the gap between glass or between rails or seams, etc. Consider, hognose live not just in burrows, but in dirt like an earthworm. If you put deep soil in your cages, your hogs will do down and stay down for long periods. And they are breathing just fine. Its what they do. That is what they are.
how does this matter? end 2

The point of this is, how well do the snakes perform. If they are dehydrated, they stop feeding. Extremely dehydrated, they have organ failure. We all got that part. But what happens with chronic dehydration when its at low levels?
This part is a mess, as most folks call it normal. For instance, people say its bad to allow a snake to grow fast. oddly that is controlled by genetics, you cannot make them grow faster then their natural design. But you can make them grow slower. Such things as poor temps, poor diet, health issues, etc, all contribute to slow growth. Fast growth, superior recruitment, are the animal functioning on all cylinders, NORMALLY. The absolute reality is, anything less then normal is less then normal. ITs normal for snakes to excel as best as possible, and the reason is simple, In nature, When conditions support great progress, its almost always temporary. The great part about captivity is, we can support them to their potential, there is no reason for drought conditions, or lack of food, or poor weather, or animals eating them, parasites or cars running them over. There is no reason for less then normal performance, is there? Chronic dehydration contributes to less then normal performance.

Three long wondering posts later and all you had to say was "yes you're right."

Absolutely everything we as keepers do to mimic thier native habitat is a bandage fix for our shortcomings because captivity is not thier native habitat.

Actually that is completely wrong, we are not mimicking anything. Look at the average cage, there is nothing in or about most cages that mimic nature.
What is do is supply/support, for the animals basic needs and mostly in an average support type of way.
Hognose use a range of temps, from the low fifties to 106f. they live a live normally in the ground, They move from one underground suitable area to another over the surface.
Most cages are mostly air space with the floor covered with some manner of substrate, not related to what they use in nature. If you mimicked nature, you cage would be 3/4's or more substrate with very little air space.
In nature these snakes have a complex social system, and relate to other individuals, and other species. We do not pay any attention to that in the least.
They have areas to breed and lay eggs, other places to feed, places to go with its hot, or dry, or too wet, etc. They do sit and watch, yet, we give them, hmmmmmmmmmmmm none of that.

So help me out here, how do we mimic nature?

And no we do not agree and that is a very good thing. We don't have to. what is good is we talk about it. Maybe I will learn something or you will or someone else. So thanks

"So help me out here, how do we mimic nature? "

For a researcher with an extensive background in herpetology I'm stunned that you don't know the answer. But since you asked, we supply our version of a heat source, water source, humidity control, food supply, nesting, ground medium, terrain, incubation, brumation cycle, and we select who breeds with whom. All of which is artificially given to them by us in a captive state in an attempt to mimic their natural environmental state. And all of which is a band aid fix for our shortcomings because we are not keeping them in their natural environmental state.

Here endeth the lesson on basic captive husbandry.

Thanks for the providing a worthless argument, yea we supply heat, and such, but nothing like what they do in nature.
It would be a nice conversation if you would actually make some realistic points. Like how does our temps reflect nature. You do none of that, all you do is say something without backing it up. Great, anyone can do that and no one benefits. Thanks

"... yea we supply heat, and such, but nothing like what they do in nature. "
That was exactly my point Frank from the very beginning but you didn't seem to understand it or want to accept it until now. I question why you seem to be so argumentative until the obvious finally smacks you in the head. Maybe instead of trying to question everything and everybody you take a moment of silence an comprehend the points being made by others.

"It would be a nice conversation if you would actually make some realistic points. Like how does our temps reflect nature."
You didnt ask that question now did you Frank? That would be a good thread to start. Unfortunately I think real scientific data is going to be hard to come by to support any real comparisons.

"Great, anyone can do that and no one benefits. Thanks"
Actually you just benefited by learning that everything we do in captivety is an attempt to mimic their natural environment.

Peace out...

Its not about understanding you, your not supporting any points, your being argumentative. And just playing silly games.

In one of your replys you state, I(fr) only see one side of it. Two things, I was part of developing many sides, and you have not mentioned what that side would be. Recipe keeping is "the" side I do question. And its not the recipe, its keepers not advancing from there. Gregg is a great example, he uses rack systems, then modified them as needed. I am sure he will keep doing that as he learns more and more about the animals.
How about trying something different then, you you you, and maybe add, I I I. Like something you actually did to support your opinion.
As of now, it appears your upset that I have an opinion. And that opinion may have merit. And that merit may be supported with stuff you do not understand. Things like research, field work, experience, and hundreds of generations of many species.
So how about putting down your wall of defense and rolling up your pant legs and get in the mud with me and get dirty. The reason is, if you do that, real usable conversation will come from it. Funny thing about experience, As I write this, I am watching a species of snake copulate, that I first bred 39 years ago.

OK Frank lets take this from a different direction. Like the very begining before you got lost and wondered off in differnt directions.

Our original conversation was about caging and that everything we as keepers do to mimic thier native habitat is a bandage fix for our shortcomings because captivity is not thier native habitat.

Please explain to me in 500 words or less how this is not true?

OK Frank lets take this from a different direction. Like the very begining before you got lost and wondered off in differnt directions. The original post was about a paper product for substrate and my reply expressed a concern over dehydration.

Our original conversation was about caging and that everything we as keepers do to mimic thier native habitat is a bandage fix for our shortcomings because captivity is not thier native habitat.
I do not see anything natural or being a product of mimic, in how most people keep hognose. Non natural substrate, non natural food, non natural temps, non natural social and behavioral conditions, and non natural space. So I ask you, how is that mimicking nature? As a person that is observing them in nature, I just don't see natural in say, 90% of captive hognose husbandry

Please explain to me in 500 words or less how this is not true? Did I do it in less then 500 words?

"I do not see anything natural or being a product of mimic, in how most people keep hognose. Non natural substrate, non natural food, non natural temps, non natural social and behavioral conditions, and non natural space. So I ask you, how is that mimicking nature? As a person that is observing them in nature, I just don't see natural in say, 90% of captive hognose husbandry "

Now you're getting somewhere. So then, what exactly would YOU call it that we are doing in captivity? You failed to mention that in your answer. See if you can do it with one or two words to describe it. I used the word mimic. What's your word Frank?

The road your going down is silly, how about stepping up and saying what you mean.
I say that because if you think listening to the animals(going by their results) is how these recipe methods came about, your sadly mistaken.
Also be clear about what your talking about. please.
Because you not saying a thing about context and direction will cause me to go on a 45 page rant, and we don't want that, RIGHT?

C'mon Frank, teach me something. Im willing to learn which is want you wanted. I'm asking questions like you wanted all of us to. So please answer it and stop dodging it. I think you will find that we are both on the same page with this but just using different terminology to convey the same points.

So here it is again so you don't go off on a 45 page useless rant that no one wants to here.

"So then, what exactly would YOU call it that we are doing in captivity? You failed to mention that in your answer. See if you can do it with one or two words to describe it. I used the word mimic. What's your word Frank?"

There is good stuff in those "45 page rants". Took me awhile to figure this out. Seriously. Forget the personality BS and just read them. Take what you want and leave the rest. The hognose forum is the only colubrid one left on KS which actually discusses husbandry issues and the biology of snakes in any detail.

Frank, I'm following your teachings and questioning everything. This is your time to shine and teach me Frankanese so I can communicate properly with you.

Please answer my very simple question.

"So then, what exactly would YOU call it that we are doing in captivity? You failed to mention that in your answer. See if you can do it with one or two words to describe it. I used the word mimic. What's your word Frank?"

I am not Frank.

But are we making in captivity just the favorable conditions for the snakes to survive and breed?

It doesn't seem like we are really mimicking nature there are no real seasons or drought or starvation or predators....we are only to give them the usable parts of nature food, water, shelter and a mate with a hotspot. everything else is decorations.

Hey Frank,
I took your advice and decided to do some off net research with several breeders, vets and a few in research. Combined on a conservative estimate, they have close to 200 years of first hand experience. I showed them this thread. The complete and total consensus was you were wrong because a) you either don't understand what I'm trying to convey, which is extremely concerning for a self promoting researcher such as yourself, as you know being open minded is key to being a good researcher b) are just blinded by your own arrogance and once caught refused to participate, kind of like a little boy that went crying back to mommy n daddy when he didn't get his way, or c) you just like to come off like the only one that knows the right answer until you get exposed.

Either way, they were amused by your wondering answers that didn't answer anything asked. That concerned the researchers and they warned me that researchers with your mentality are the ones that provide useless, dangerous data. Like the ones that "know" the answer to experiments before it's even been run to completion. Garbage in, garbage out.

I find it funny how you won't answer a very simple question when you are the one touting to everyone to question everything.

Sadly I learned what I needed to learn about you with this interaction.

Peace out...

You should most likely just leave it alone from here on out. I can tell you what I think most keepers are doing and I am sure Frank will agree. Most keepers, from what I can see are doing a crap job and are not even coming close to mimicking the options hogs should get. And to be honest, who really cares what breeders think or say. ANYONE can put two or even 40 hogs together, get lots of eggs and hatch them out. ANYONE can do it. It does not mean they understand a thing about what reptiles actually need. For every success a breeder has, there is failure and most people are completely oblivious as to why they are having these failures. As far as vets go, they are about as useful as air breaks on a turtle when it comes to reptiles. There are VERY FEW vets that specialize in reptiles and even fewer who know more than you and I. I know when Frank posts some peoples feelings get hurt and egos get bruised. But seriously, read between the lines and use the information to your benefit. More importantly, the snakes benefit.

Heres whats funny, I have no idea what your trying to convey, as you will not say what that is.

Also, Why is it you have to ask other people. Sir, what we have here, is you and I. Not, FR against the world. And who would these breeders be, etc.

If you want to talk animals, bring it on, If you want to play silly games, I wish you luck.

Best post in this whole slew of posts!! Thank you, my friend!!

Also, regarding that info you posted:

"Water - Clean water must be available at all times in a bowl that is heavy enough that the snake will not constantly tip it over. With hognose snakes, particularly the western species, it is important to keep the cage dry. Humidity is thought to possibly cause respiratory infections in hognose snakes, an illness that is often fatal."

To me, very simple and yet sound. Many hog breeders I know do just that, I have had great results raising hogs with that as well, and life goes on!

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Genesis 1:1

From what I have seen, most reptile keepers keep their reptiles like complete garbage. The Ironic thing is that it is actually easier to completely fix problems we see in captivity than it is to try and temporarily fix them.

As far as keepers and breeders keeping their snakes without problems goes, that is complete BS. I know many breeders of different species and they ALL have failures. Snakes just dropping dead for no reason, females becoming egg bound, females not being able to produce past a certain age and size, and the list can go on. However, on the forums we only see people successes and the failures are kept quiet and are crammed in the closet with the rest of the skeletons. Failures that generally do not happen in nature with fit animals.

MOST hognose breeders will tell you that big females over a certain age will not be good producers. Seriously, ask any breeder how old their oldest producing hog is. This is completely opposite to what happens in nature. How does that logic make any sense at all?

You can not believe the amount of females lost from egg binding every year in the collections of small and large breeders alike. A couple of breeders I know personally have lost 10 females between the two of them just this season due to egg binding.

Dehydration is most likely the biggest killer we face as keepers and breeders and information like what was quoted in this thread from the herp society is bad information. What living reptile lives and thrives in complete dryness? Dry conditions without some type humid escape does not sustain reptilian life. Even reptiles from the most arid regions of the world find cool, humid areas in their habitat to escape the elements frequently on a daily basis.

As mentioned, we make an ATTEMPT to replicate what they have in nature but in most cases, it is a very poor feeble attempt because of the lack of understanding of reptile physiology and behavior.

Sure, we can keep a hognose alive in even the poorest of conditions in captivity, however, this is just a testament to how tough these snakes are. However, they will not thrive and live to their potential when it comes to life span and reproductive longevity.

I know, you all do not like Frank because he comes off as demeaning and condescending sometimes. Just try to read between the lines even though it may seem like someone is holding up their first three fingers and all you see is the middle one. There really is a lot of good, valuable information in his posts.

The thing is, Frank is not trying to be the cutting edge hognose breeder mixing 5 different genetic mutations into one snake. He is not trying to make friends by being a hognose rock star. He is a KEEPER who is actually interested in the hows and whys animals he keeps. To me, his information is more honest than those trying to be top dog in the hognose game.

"The thing is, Frank is not trying to be the cutting edge hognose breeder mixing 5 different genetic mutations into one snake. He is not trying to make friends by being a hognose rock star. He is a KEEPER who is actually interested in the hows and whys animals he keeps. To me, his information is more honest than those trying to be top dog in the hognose game."

Agreed. I like Frank and reading his posts sometimes. He is a wealth of information. His only draw backs are failing to see both sides at times because he lets his passion blind him and asking the right questions to elicit the answers he is seeking. Using this type of communication medium makes it a bit more difficult to get a feel for the answers that are being sought after. I miss that old fashion way of communication, face to face...

I would love to set down over a glass of beer and just pick his brain for hours...

" From what I have seen, most reptile keepers keep their reptiles like complete garbage. "

And the way you keep them is better? Have you seen everyone else's collection? Kind of a huge accusation.

" As far as keepers and breeders keeping their snakes without problems goes, that is complete BS. "

Well, of course, that is true. You are correct. We all have seen probs, have had some die for no reason, etc. BUT, there is also a lot of good production and breeders out there too.

" You can not believe the amount of females lost from egg binding every year in the collections of small and large breeders alike. A couple of breeders I know personally have lost 10 females between the two of them just this season due to egg binding. "

You ever stop to think that pumping them with food all of the time could be a contributing factor, as it is well known that many hog breeders are pushers, to get ahead, and get the " next morph BRAH!? " Maybe, just MAYBEEEEEEEEE that could be part of it? Friend of mine who bred hogs knew of many keepers, who he knew, did push their hogs, experience the same types of issues. Those who didn't, like himself, did not. Also, what about the fact that hogs eat toads and frogs primarily in the wild. Maybe their bodies are not built for rodent consumption, as much as we as keepers, would like to think. So, with that being said, maybe all of the rodents being fed, if a breeder feeds them ANY time they will eat, is resulting in obese hogs, in cages that are small, could be the factor?

What about giving the females the biggest size cage they can be put in, as well? Way bigger than the males? Bigger size, equals more space, equals more exercise, equals better tone of snake.

" Dehydration is most likely the biggest killer we face as keepers and breeders and information like what was quoted in this thread from the herp society is bad information. "

So you make that assumption because????? Have you seen everyone else's collection? So you have ample evidence, like your buddy here, that everyone's collection contains dehydrated snakes? LOL!

" As mentioned, we make an ATTEMPT to replicate what they have in nature but in most cases, it is a very poor feeble attempt because of the lack of understanding of reptile physiology and behavior. "

That is true, and I highly agree!
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Genesis 1:1

Do I think the way I keep is better? It depends on what you are looking to achieve. I can say with certainty that my way is better than I was originally keeping them. The way I was keeping them was "by the book" like most do currently. Is it better than everyones? No, I never claimed it to be. Is it better than what care sheets recommend and what most keepers do, then my answer is yes based on my experience with both methods. I have not seen everyones collection however, I have seen many in person and countless over the internet. From what I have seen, it is mostly bare minimum husbandry.

As far as snakes just going belly up for no reason, that is BS. There is always a reason and is almost always husbandry related.

And no, I do not think problem happen from pumping your snakes full of food on its own. These animals are programed to feed and grow as fast as possible. it is their very nature to do so. And hogs DO NOT primarily eat amphibs. If you paid attention to any of Franks posts, his study areas are almost void of amphibians. So, no, I highly doubt feeding rodents is an issue.

I offer my hogs larger than normal rack draws. I do believe it offers them a bigger gradient for both temps and humidity. If the proper gradient is not offered in even the largest of cages, it is pointless space as the snake will not move around. Size is not as important as options.

More in the next post.

So on to dehydration. Again, I never said everyones collection. Not sure why you seem to need to put words in my mouth. I said most. Low level dehydration is almost undetectable to the average keeper because they do not know what the signs are. Like mentioned, sitting in empty water dishes and even soaking in full ones is a clear sign. The thing is, low level dehydration takes a long time to kill a reptile. Is slowly chips away at the renal system and eventually causes failure. It can take years but eventually does the damage. I will bet that the huge majority of sudden, unexplained deaths of seemingly healthy snakes are because of low level dehydration. You know, the ones that die for no reason at all. And if you think that calling Frank my buddy somehow insults me or makes what I say any less relevant, you are wrong. Not sure how agreeing with someone makes me their buddy. Care to explain? Stupid crap like that is exactly why good threads like this go down hill fast. Because people (not all, but many) do not know how to handle situations or debate with actual intelligence.

Gregg, you said:

" Because people (not all, but many) do not know how to handle situations or debate with actual intelligence. "

Yet you say:

" Again, I never said everyones collection. Not sure why you seem to need to put words in my mouth. I said most. "

You just contradicted yourself.

How do YOU know most people's collections out there? You don't, plain and simple.

Look, I actually agree with you on most things, but you predicting and assuming what others' do in their collections, and making blanket statements like your buddy FR does all of the time, has got to stop. You do not know what MOST others do. You are just assuming. Not very scientific, eh?

Have a good day!
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Genesis 1:1

The thing is, I know for a fact you are not a dummy. I have seen numerous posts of yours and I know you get what I am saying. If we agree, why are we even going back and forth? LOL. You know that the majority of keepers don't know and do not care to know what is really going on with their animals. Most keep according to crappy care sheets. And honestly me knowing and understanding how and why reptiles take in and conserve hydration, the large majority of set ups we see are not supportive of those functions. Like I say, not everyone, but most. That is not an assumption.

Look at the huge amount of post made about shedding problems, egg binding, sudden death for "no reason", feeding problems, the list goes on and on. These are all problems associated with low level to complete dehydration.

You are still assuming:

" You know that the majority of keepers don't know and do not care to know what is really going on with their animals. Most keep according to crappy care sheets. "

Again, so you are claiming then that you KNOW the majority of keepers? You do not. There is your assumption. I do not know the majority of keepers either.

In my circle of reptile friends, everyone cares about knowing and about what is really going on with their animals. Everyone, me included.

You are a good guy my friend. No worries. We will agree to disagree.
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Genesis 1:1

The crazy thing is that you do not realize how much in the minority you and your circle of friends actually are. And I mean that in a very good way. I have been at this for well over 25 years and know how rare it is to find people who actually think ouside of the care sheet shoe box keeper mentality.

Discern, its nice that you take the time to be argumentative. But to who's benefit. Its surely not about benefiting the animals in captivity.
Countering assumptions with assumptions is clearly of no value.
You also use nothing to support any opinion of your own. Do you actually have one, or do you just not want others to have one? To me, that is the key question, with the most important answer.

You questioning his examples is odd, while its not about how exacting they were, they made a valid point. My GUESS IS he really really under estimated, in his examples.

I will ask this. There are a handful of HUGE colubrid producers. I did a little research and they are producing upwards of 250,000 units a year, and have been for many years. So in a few years, a million hit the market. Where are they?
If you look at the numbers hog breeders produce, just look at the few of the classifieds, where are they now, where do they all go.
Theres a point here, if a high percentage of that million reproduced, and those reproduced, etc. With hogs, if 80% of the hogs reproduced, the market would be flooded beyond belief.
So where to they go? So if you look at the numbers produced and how many actually do well. Its a very very very small percentage. So Gregg is way off, its worse then he indicated. part 600000000000000

Heh heh, you said unit.

I said, Unut, Dan, we are alike in some ways, we both just had to do that.

It is post like these that make me remember you are a pretty funny dude. LOL. It is refreshing to see I am not the only one with Beavis and Butthead sense of humor.

Shutup, Beavis.

Here is my wild caught, three year long term captive, Southern alligator lizard. Elgaria multicarinata

I keep her on sani chips with two broken flowerpots as hides, with a shallow waterbowl.

She shed her skin today:

Dan

See another thing we have in common, one of my favorite lizards and the first reptile species I actually captive bred(1962)
Even if I did not have to do much, build a box with a lid, fill it with natural material, place the box outside is coastal SoCal, toss in lots of potatoe bugs( J crickets) lizards and grasshoppers. Their courting behavior of the male biting the female at the base of the head and dragging her around for days and how males combated, is most likely what started the monster that is I.(the ethology approach)
Another lesson was, I attempted to keep legless lizards in the same cage. You know cause I found them under the same boards. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm It worked out better for the Gator lizards. I did produce garders and ribbon snakes before that, but I cannot remember seeing them copulate. I most likely bought gravid snakes from the pet shop. I always picked the fattest individuals. hahahahaha I was in the fourth or fifth grade. Oddly I won a science award, my project was on centrifugal force.(fourth grade)

In my younger days, I once made the mistake of trying to house a five lined skink with a western slender glass lizard. I only made that mistake ONCE. The skink was still alive when I found it, but it was also a legless lizard. Anguids are awesome in captivity.

Billy, is that your real name? Dude, you finally said something other then, you agree with what someone else said. I am impressed.

Congrats sir. You talk about assumptions, yet, your assuming as well. All the points you brought up were assumptions of what Gregg may or may not have done.
In a real life conversation, you would ask him starting with one point at a time. how about trying that. I would love to hear his reasoning and I am sure its valid.

Hi Dan,

I respectfully disagree on a couple of points.

"In any environment, wild or captive, snakes are going to dehydrate as part of their natural biological processes and as a result of their environment."

I believe that all snakes spend their lives avoiding dehydration at all costs. They do this because even minor, chronic dehydration can lead to catastrophic outcomes including death by:

starvation - as dehydration can limit the ability to digest food.
illness - dehydration inhibits immune function and can allow normal pathogens/parasites to get the upper hand
organ failure - once the kidneys are compromised, a return to normal conditions (feeding) can cause failure
predation - searching for adequate moisture increases the chance of encountering a predator

"If the humidity is low, and the temperature is high, they will dehydrate faster."

This is why they choose to live in microhabitats that can escape these conditions

"I prefer having clean water available at all times, and a dry cage, because the dry cage allows their feces to dry out, and prevents bacteria, yeast and other nasties growing in the bedding. These things can and will lead to various illnesses."

Those same conditions that allow for a turd jerky will create a snake jerky. They encounter bacteria, mold, fungus parasites and other pathogens daily in the wild. It is their ability to maintain security, hydration and basking options at high temperatures that keeps their immune system humming to the point where none of those nasties stands a chance.

Also, I know that this post was sort of hijacked, but I think that these tangents lead to the best discussions on these relatively dead forums. Thanks.

Will

Where are we disagreeing?

Hi Dan, it appears to me, you would rather be argumentative then have a discussion. When you do so, you should really make sure you know what your talking about. Also you appear A or Z, which is common when someone is being argumentative.
For example, CHRONIC does not mean all, it means this;
Chronic,
1

b : being such habitually
It does not mean all. In this context it means, long lasting, low levels of dehydration, in most cases none symptomatic in the short term.
This is very common in the pet trade, And what we can discuss, common in most caging systems. You may want to read up on how snakes process water. Of interest, snakes do not sweat, they pass urine in crystal form, not liquid.
About fungus, mold, etc. Sir that is the Z in A or Z. Snakes do not require high humidity, they do not tolerate drying conditions well.