Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello! I've had a new baby king shipped to me, and for the first time in over a decade I have a scared baby who hasn't been handled a lot. All those years ago I handled that baby often even though he was crazy scared of me because I was told that was the only way for him to "tame down" and be handable. It worked, he was a great pet all his life. Since then I've heard that you shouldn't stress scared babies by handling them so often, and that they will settle down as they grow up a bit. I don't want to stress him, but I want him to be a handable, calm snake when he's older. Which is the right way to ensure that? If it's handling, how often? I've had him a week, during this time I've left him alone except for feeding (he's ate 2 pinkies no problem) and he seems to be getting more confident in his new home. Thanks for any advice.
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1.0.0 277 Graybanded Kingsnake, Boris Karloff - R.I.P.
1.0.0 Crockett Graybanded Kingsnake, Julien Sands
1.0.0 Ball Python, Frank Langella
1.0.0 Blue-eyed lucy, Ian McKellen
1.0.0 spider Ball python, Martin Freeman
1.0.0 champagne ball python, Norman Reedus
1.0.0 Sweet Rosy Bourke Parakeet, Didgeridoo
1.0.0 Ringneck Dove, Pimmdale Plumington
0.1.0 Smart & Loving Daughter

I rarely handle a single thing for the first month coming into the house. I try to even avoid full cleanings of cages and stick with spot cleaning until that time has passed and depending on age and size of snake how many feedings. I would rather have a well started snake in the beginning before I deal with the tameness. On the general whole, I do rarely handle my animals and with running a rescue, I get sketchy animals in. I however feed them well and that tends to keep a lot of the bitey tendencies down.

He is tiny, you are (relative to him) huge. He looks upon you as a predator. It is great that he is feeding well for you. Feed the heck out of him and minimize handling for a couple months. Get him on fuzzy mice/hoppers as soon as you can. Just let him grow. Once he has attained some size he will be more confident and less fearful. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly baby snakes will grow if given lots of food.

I actually am losing my touch with reality. As again, I think to hold to tame or not to hold to tame is academic, aside from, theory, from keeping snakes.
First, Cal kings in particular, do not need taming. They are friendly calm snakes, which is why I loved them so much. They are curious and just have to see what your doing, and if hiding will come out when they sense you.
Neonates do the coil and strike defensive behavior, and its not about tame or needing to be tame. They are new to the world and have some instincts. One is what out for huge giant living things that are hungry.
So, you are above them, eye balling them, grabbing them and a million times larger. I don't blame them for being scared. Frightened or scared is the key here.
How should you treat a new snake, IT depends on the snake, is it sick or healthy, that is the first most important question. If its healthy, then do not treat it like its sick. Treat it normally. Pt 1

Snakes are animals of routine. If your new animal is healthy, and you have a need to handle it, then make it routine for both you and the animal. If your handling stresses the animal, then you need to learn how to hold an animal. In my experience 98% of keepers do not have a FEEL for holding snakes. Its a dance, its you and the snake, the reality is, your holding eachother. The first simple instructions are, With one hand, pick the snake up and set it in the other hand, keep that hand still and secure. Like its a branch. Not grabbing, squeezing or moving all around. If you did not have arms and legs, you wouldn't want to sit on quicksand, security is the key here. With your free hand, you can gently guide it if needed. When first picking it up, slide your hand under the snake and not grab it like a predator. Again, how a snake reacts to you. IS ABOUT YOU, not the snake.
So, learning to hold a snake is the most valuabe lesson in taming. Routine is important, Start that routine as soon as you unpack the snake or take it out of its hatching box. If it's healthy. The key to taming(trust) is YOU. Some folks talk to the animal, great, anything to comunicate a feeling of trust. Some folks say, snakes cannot hear, that's debatable but, its not about the snake its about you. pt2

Its about that simple. Most folks want to hold a snake, because it makes them happy. Well that goes two ways, make the snake happy too. Do something that's for the snake. DO that and your snake will come out and seek you out to be held. One thing that we totally take away from them is their ability to see. In nature they do all manner of things to SEE. So when you take your snake out, hold it up and let it see. You will be amazed at how much they WANT that. Or feed it. This takes more skill and trust, but it is by far the best method of building a bond of trust. I am not sure how folks think, But they tend to make it all about them, how about making it about the animal. If you become useful to the animal, you then give it reason to form a bond of trust.
Remember their language is smell and touch. Learn to talk to them in their language, your touch is what they understand. Lastly RELAX, calm down, take it easy. No worries mate, just pick them up when you want. I could give you all these FR stories and I have a million, but I will do better. Google up the reptile whisperer, Kathyrn Brown. Her ability to touch rivals mine. OK, we are peers. OK She's got a great touch. do it

I think the point that FR is trying to make is these Cali kings are tough.. They don't "stress" as much as some of us think.

Sometimes FR make his piont in a strong way and goes overboard with his passion to make US THINK! Sometimes a reaction is better than no reaction.. SO don't take it personal Aaron. It is all about making us think.

Back in the 80's we used to take hard stubborn feeders for a drive in our cars. That is how we would get them to eat.. to stimulate a feeding response. While I do not understand this "stimuli" to eat. It worked.. and worked many times for many herpers back then.

So maybe what we think as stress may not be stress (for this particular species of snake)but other things that are stress we don't consider.

Basically Kingsnakes and their eggs are as tough as they can get *shakes head*. Their eggs can get pretty cold and you don't have to worry about placing them in their incubation boxes right side up ect.

Also when I ship neonate Florida kingsnake to folks, I ask that they feed their kings the first day they arrive.. Even in winter!@.. I tell them just to heat them up and they will eat and settle in (rather than wait for several days or a week by leaving them alone-as if that actually helps the snake!) Most people don't understand this and the few that have not taken my advice found some problems with feeding after waiting a week -surprise surprise!~

these kings can take some handling as long as they are supported in other ways discussed in these threads in the past week.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

thanks for explaining in different terms.

and I dont take things personally, between my job and hobbies (military, bodybuilding, car racing, snakes, and drumming) i'm surrounded by a lot of egos and experts and would cry myself to sleep every night if things got to me.

I am curious though. you said king eggs do not have to be turned with the right side up??? total news to me! So the method of carefully setting up clumps exactly as they are laid or drawing a mark at the top of each egg is a waste of time and just more recycled bs passed around over and over?

Hi Aaron, first, this is not about egos, its about snakes. If you remember that, then it makes it easy. You do not have to do anything, change anything, no one checks on you. Its always up to you. All that's said here is to make you think. And use if you want.
About egos. on places such as this, folks offer all manner of advice, and they have no real experience. Those that have questions answered, should make sure the person who's giving them advice, has the experience to give them advice.
I think all posters should offer their experience level. That makes it real. In This case, I have a particular set of skills.
Lastly All the stuff you do is measurable, body building, cars etc. The same goes for snakes, all results are tangible and measurable. I will keep with the I's. I dwell on what is said about snakes. I know about them, you folks, I don't know.
I also grew up in sports, boxing, wrestling, I wrestled both in high school, college and AAU. You should understand. In my sports, there is no room for ego. Its all about results. That is what husbandry is about, results, also "taming" the subject of this thread, is about results. Best wishes sir

Frank, I didn't mean to imply that I was dealing with your ego. Just that disagreements, differing opinions, and confrontation with experts and people who think they are experts is something I experience all day, every day. so I'm kinda jaded and nothing gets to me on a personal level anymore.

I appreciate info from all sources, love learning, and adopt what makes sence to me. If I don't understand I'll attempt to understand to a point and then let it go. If I disagree then I let it go as well. No harm, no foul, no worry as long as I'm putting warheads on foreheads, running 9s without blowing up, strong as a horse while looking amazing, blowing people away on drums, and my animals are living long, healthy, fulfilling lives.

Well we would get along, all the things you do OK, except one, Drummers, hmmmmmmmmmmmm lets just say are different. hahahahaha

I guess part of whats going on here is offering advice that makes the journey better. So I will say this, its not about making sense. Almost all have opinions that make sense, TO THEM. but not necessarily work with the snakes. In our area, actual keeping of snakes, its all about what works and in this day and age, we have the ability to have it work really well.
The problem with recipe husbandry is, it works. It works poorly but still works. All animals and you by the way, have potential. You as a BB, attempt to rearch your potential. You work your arse off to reach and exceed that potential. These snakes are the same, each individual, every last one of them naturally strives to reach its genetic potential. In a cage, the only thing holding them from that is the KEEPER. So I am here to promote allowing more then, not less then. So its not about working, its about working better. I am going to go hit the speed bag. later

you mention asking people to feed snakes when they arrive.

I think i've asked you before, but do not recall your answer.

if the snake happens do not eat right away, do you suggest continuing to offer food daily or then waiting a few days to try again.

I ask because i've offered food on the 2nd and 3rd day and some take it, but the ones that refuse always end up eating within a week or two, so something was off on that 2nd day but they were fine by say day 8. So do you just offer food daily so they get it as soon as they are ready for it with no wait?

Why s nskae does not eat is such a brad question.

it is hard for me to know what conditions and husbandry a person has unless I actually go to their house and SEE IT!.. this question has been asked of me several times and all I can say is they were eating find for me when they left my hands, so why would they not eat after receiving.

This is another reason FR posts the way he does. There is no cookie cutter method. What he is trying to do is get people to think for themselves. To understand the snake rather than just say they have the perfect setup. Sometimes there are small details missed. I can easily detect those when I go to see the conditions. But trying to describe them over the phone or via internet is like someone describing the color and pattern of a snake they saw in their backyard..ever had that happen? LOL!

This 2 day to a week waiting period after receiving s kingsnake is what most do after receiving a new snake.. and I suggest to my customers feed the day of arrival. Why? Because I know the day it left me it would eat. My snakes are my own.. They don't come from somebody else and I do not buy other peoples collection. I worked with my colonies for years and I am not a broker, high end pet dealer or newbie. So I know my snakes.

What changes when they arrive at someone elses place is beyond me.. And a general description of the cage size, water bowl and temps do not always tell the whole story.

My snakes eat when they arrive and if they eat that day then all is on its new owner.
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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

I also do not follow a set pattern, particularly this stuff about waiting. Not after receiving one in shipment. Or after a regurig. Again, Its our task to judge the snake, is it healthy or not. If you receive a sick snake, then its good to know its sick right off the bat. Not wait a week, then another, just to find out it has Flagellates. If a snake attempts to feed, its telling you something, if it cannot keep food down, its telling you more.
Back to taming, as mentioned, most wild caught kings do not bite, they are far more prone to musk you. The ones that do bite and musk, generally stop biting and musking as soon as they realize it did not work. That is, within minutes.
Neonates do that coil and strike thing, which is not biting. Go ahead and put you finger by it, Mouth closed and not striking at your finger, Just popping all over. This behavior goes away in a few days even if you do not hold or touch it. In most cases, a fearful cal king musks you. That is their defense, and head hiding(to a point).
So I ask you Aaron, what makes you think you should not handle them properly for six months?

Imo leaving it alone for a while is the right thing to do.

Except for when I was a kid and didnt know better, i've always let babies do as they please and not try to alter their behavior... it's normal for them to be afraid and defensive, so let them do it.

with kings i give them 6ish months before handling becomes a common thing, corns 2ish months, milks 6ish to a year, boas 2ish months... just kinda depends on the species and sometimes individuals. I wait for them to relax and be comfortable with me on their own and then start playing with them.

kings are nice snakes by nature, i've found large desert kings in the field that are as placid as any pet snake and some that put on a good show for about 5 min then just calm right down. point being, the snake is sorta naturally "tame" and just needs time to realize you arent going to eat it.

While your and TB's advice of leaving them alone for a while is Recipe and good advice for folks you do not know. The value of this forum is, we Know Snakekate and she has feelings and is curious and cares. So why would we/I treat her in a "recipe" sort of way. Recipe=information anybody, including dumb as a stone folks can follow)
Young animals like people are empty containers when born/hatched. They are designed and ready to LEARN. So why would you not interact with them when they are at there strongest ability to learn. Simply put, a hatchling snake enters the world and learns its environment. As it ages it learns less and less, then becomes set in its environment. You want to be part of that environment. Not an interloper to what's normal to it.
I mentioned common sense in my reply to SK, but I did not mention that If your in interactions negatively effect the animal, then adjust your interactions, get better at it, not avoid it. Again, I am not being mean, but when you tell SK to not touch her animals for X period of time, it can be taken as, you do not think shes smart enough to learn. Personally, shes has all the tools to become really good with kingsnakes. It starts In her head. Shes wants to be. Think about this, the best bond you can do is have a hatchling have its first meals, in your hand. Doing that will leave a inprint that your hand provides a place of nourishment. And please do not say, it will want to eat your hand. Cause I am pretty sure that wild snakes do not eat the nest the baby mice are found in. If they attempt to eat your hand, its because you taught them too. pt1

I often get the feeling folks think these animals are stupid. As they treat them like they are. No intelligence, no behavior, no ability etc. So I point out, those baby kings make a living, grow up and produce, out there, I am pointing out my window at harsh desert(with kings in it) So I have a hard time with this fragile, delicate, weak approach to snakes. They are indeed none of those. So I ask show them some respect. If they are weak, fragile, delicate in your cages, its not about the snakes, its about your cages and You/me. Not them. Again, common sense. So as I mentioned, a healthy neonate. Make sure that's what you have, if healthy, they are tuff as nails and can take a whole lot of adversity, they live OUT THERE(nasty arse dry desert full of nasty things, everything you touch, cuts, pokes, sticks you. Or bites you. Even baby tiny cute horn lizards make it out there. Tuff I tell you!

forgive my ignorance, but I dont understand the point you're making.

In my mind i'm thinking (how is handling the snake for enjoyment or to tame it about the snake and not about the keeper?). We all know it's not required because there are plenty of herpers who have grabbed up wild snakes that are as calm as can be and just hang out in your hands or crawl up your arm. No taming was neccesary and not only were they okay with being held, but one could assume they enjoy it. On the other hand captive bred baby snakes have a whole host of personalities. some are fine with being picked up right away, some curl up and strike, some musk all over you, and some it seems to just depend on the day. With most though, they just grow out of what we percieve to be bad behavior by just seeing us offering food, spot cleaning cages, providing water and quickly realizing we are not a threat. I've had lots of babies start out with a less than ideal disposition and calmed down all on their own.

I've only tried to tame snakes that could potentially pose a hazard if they didnt calm down. i have an argentine boa that was a crazy baby that hissed and bit like mad, but i held her daily very gently and after a few weeks she was fine. I only did it though because i wanted zero chance of having a 10' snake that acted like that.

i'm not trying to be argumentative, just want to understand where you're coming from.

The subject was Kates question about taming her neonate cal king. My advice was to determine if its healthy and if so, proceed with interactions as soon as possible. I explain my reasons.
You and TB said, wait for 6 months or so. I disagree. I supported my case, how about supporting yours.

I offered reasons why and even some methods. I stated that neonate snakes are not weak or fragile.

And yes, taming a snake is for the keeper, but can be for the animal is done right. Its a awful life stuck in a tiny cage. I offered a person to goggle up to see that in action. Kathyrn without question has tame animals that benefit from her interactions. And with species that are suppose to be "difficult". So Aaron, what say you?

My case is that baby snakes may percieve us as something that is a million times bigger than them that might want to eat them. I know if godzilla picked me up i'd be terrified beyond belief and on the verge of a heart-attack. now, if he picked me up 30 times and never hurt me i would eventually adjust and accept that he was just checking me out, but the first 30 times would be a nightmare.

So i wonder, why put a snake though a (possible) nightmare as a tiny baby, when just being around the snake for a while is usually enough for it to gain trust and be fine with handling? Once it learns to trust you on it's own terms, then start playing with it and looking at it for your enjoyment.

snakes didnt evolve to be pals with humans... doesnt mean they cant enjoy the interaction, just that I dont see how forcing them to be comfortable with human interaction at an accelerated rate is more benificial than any other method. I've seen snakes with different "personalities" and different sets of boundries and dont feel that all should be expected to behave the same way. some really do appear to like being held and will crawl out of their cage and into my hands, while others mearly tolerate handling and get noticeably wound up when being held even though they are treated the same as the snake thats fine with anything.

Please dont take offense, I worry that you already have. I'm simply trying to learn and understand something new to me.

Your being anthropomorphic, assuming what an animal feels based on how you would feel. And rationalizing to support your opinion.
I ask for real results, not ideas on why something may or may not work. I ask this because, I have raised literally hundreds upon hundreds of Cal kings and Handling them right out of the egg was indeed the best way to get them familiar with me, their keeper. I was known for having kings grow super fast, healthy and great producers and handling never hindered that.
Two points to question, is the animal healthy and is the keeper holding the animal in a proper way.
I have no problems holding reptiles, I have good hands, sadly some folks have hands of stone. Those folks should not handle snakes at all, until they learn how.
If I may, taming a captive Kingsnake is pretty darn easy, Lets say, level one. The reason they are so popular is for that very reason. Easy to tame, curious, do not dive for cover the second they see you. And commonly will seek you out for reward. I enjoy and practice taming wild snakes that are known to be extremely nervous. That's a challenge, if I make a mistake, they simply do not come back. Have pics Oh and mistakes have to be large ones, even wild free roaming snakes are fairly tolerant.
The reason I challenged your advice is this, you offered nothing concrete to support what you recommended.

The subject was Kates question about taming her neonate cal king

Not to make it about people FR. But I think Snakekate and Snakemother are two different people.

Nice to have females here though! LOL!

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FR quote:
"Doing the same things over and over expecting to learn something else, is the definition of insanity"

Whoops

Yes, I'm a different poster than Kate. I've had baby kings before, but it's been over a decade since I had a scared one. (he's a graybanded, by the way). Thanks for all the posts, I'm reading and considering them all. It relieves me to know that if I want to handle him it's okay, but if I don't want to do it 3 times a week it doesn't mean he'll be scared all his life.
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1.0.0 277 Graybanded Kingsnake, Boris Karloff - R.I.P.
1.0.0 Crockett Graybanded Kingsnake, Julien Sands
1.0.0 Ball Python, Frank Langella
1.0.0 Blue-eyed lucy, Ian McKellen
1.0.0 spider Ball python, Martin Freeman
1.0.0 champagne ball python, Norman Reedus
1.0.0 Sweet Rosy Bourke Parakeet, Didgeridoo
1.0.0 Ringneck Dove, Pimmdale Plumington
0.1.0 Smart & Loving Daughter

shes a snake mother too. Sorry

No worries - nice to see more women with reptiles!
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1.0.0 277 Graybanded Kingsnake, Boris Karloff - R.I.P.
1.0.0 Crockett Graybanded Kingsnake, Julien Sands
1.0.0 Ball Python, Frank Langella
1.0.0 Blue-eyed lucy, Ian McKellen
1.0.0 spider Ball python, Martin Freeman
1.0.0 champagne ball python, Norman Reedus
1.0.0 Sweet Rosy Bourke Parakeet, Didgeridoo
1.0.0 Ringneck Dove, Pimmdale Plumington
0.1.0 Smart & Loving Daughter

I think you are on the right track already, with your thinking, and the evidence that you witnessed with your other king, in that particular experience, speaks volumes. Of course, since each snake is an individual, some may require more handling, than others, to calm down, but like yourself, I am a believer of handling them when they are young can assist in letting them know that you are not a threat, and that they can, and do, calm down, from handlings.

For me, I let the snakes settle in a few weeks before I do any major handling, other than cage cleaning, watering, feeding, etc. Then, I handle them a little bit, at a time, then let those times get longer and longer, until it seems like they have become used to the handling. Then, as they grow, I have experienced them to remain calm for the remainder of their lives. My whole collection is dog tame, and so, that has been my experience.

Congratulations on the new snake as well!!

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Genesis 1:1