Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If a female hog scatters eggs in a nest box, if the eggs are laden with a vascular system, these are CLEAR signs that the female did not nest those eggs properly and the proper options were not offered to her. If there is excessive movement and pacing before egg deposition and the female has gone a long time after prelay shed to deposire eggs, this is a CLEAR sign that she is struggling to find the conditions to lay and properly nest their eggs. That much is quite clear. What is the overall damage on these females over time and what are the effects on embryotic development? The problem is, most people do not care to know. As long as they get a couple of good clutches, they are good.

Gregg - You made several claims in your "bottom line" and I don't want to go be to repetitive by going through each one.
As you know, I'm a strong believer in the importance of verifying the hypotheses.
I think the "bottom line" is that we constantly use common sense to improve our husbandry and that, most of us agree, includes providing privacy, suitable substrate and, I would add, suitable temps for females that are about to lay.
Unfortunately, I believe egg binding might be because of other factors that we haven't uncovered yet.

BTW - I just walked into the "labor room" and one of the girls who's about to lay has turned her cage into a mess like a kid playing sandcastles at the beach - she's in a 19 gallon tub with 8 - 10 inches of mildly humid substrate.
Now, I could assume she's having a lot of fun digging around or I could assume she's stressing out looking for the right place to lay or I could assume she's just doing the normal thing and looking for the right place to lay.
BUT as a scientist, I can't assume anything.

First off, your not a scientist, and this is not a scientific forum. This is a forum of keepers who work with snakes and specifically hognose snakes.
Nesting information of offered to you based on experience. Gregg and I have practiced and experimented with this.
To verify it, you sir need to do it, its not academic. That is, Its not theory, Its a method based on application. Then observing results. What we are talking about has nothing to do with theory. We are talking about applied testable methods. These methods are not only testable, but easily measurable and by YOU.
THese methods are based on individual application. That is, results can and do vary with the application by individual keepers, based on their ability and quality of their individual animals. That is, poor keepers with unhealthy animals, will fail and it has nothing to do with the method.
With applied husbandry, results are based on ability of the keeper. Those with understanding of the animals, can receive value to their projects, by increased efficiency and improved health of their females.
As this is a keepers forum, its up to you to try it or not, its also up to you to learn what is important with any method or not.
In plain English, either do or not, but please move on and lets others learn or attempt to learn how to help their animals. If you do not want to try it, by all means don't. For god and humanities sake, DON'T try it. Your approach about scientific is STUPID. Science is to be pragmatic and question, test and receive results. Sir, if your are scientific, TEST THE FROGGING METHOD that has been successfully applied by many others. Best wishes

The true bottom line is that reptile husbandry is still in its infancy. Even with the advanced technology we now have so little is really known. The economic incentive is not there to invest the time & money it would require to resolve many of our questions. Until someone with mega bucks comes along we have to make do with our limited observations. For now we need to work with the best (not perfect) knowledge available, be flexible and hope for better knowledge.

Again well said, the problem is not about hognose and its not about science or husbandry, its about people and people who apply captive knowledge to hognose. More specifically, if you want to be accurate and scientific, its about human psychology. For instance, Caracal's arguments have nothing to do with science or scientific methods, or even known husbandry, He's being combative and argumentative, based on human psychology.
While husbandry is scientifically based and supported, its about individual humans who have animals in their control(total control)
If you look at it from a scientific point of view, rack system, recipe keeping, where every natural and recognizable to the kept is taken away, is not about science, biology or husbandry, its more about human control issues.
Simply put, to take away everything important to an animal is done by keepers for one simply reason, WE CAN. Its a method of empowerment and perceived strength.
If you observe whats happening here, any suggestion where power of choice is given back to the animal is an attack on many keepers. To empower the kept and take away from the keeper, is indeed perceived as a lessening of their position.
The reality is, all folks like Caracal need to do is, say thank you and go on with what they intend to do. But that is not what they do, they fight tooth and claw. As you can see.
I present this, its not about hognose, or keeping, or methods, its all about human psychology. In a sense, its funny, its reptile ethology in a deadly fight with human ethology. In the end, its not about bad people, is actually about caring people who would feel really really bad if they owned the fact that snakes are intelligent and think and make choices. As a side to husbandry issues, the problems are not husbandry based but human psychology based.

Hi Gregg,

Well said. These are not hypotheses, they are facts revealed from decades of python and colubrid breeding. Egg binding is the result of poor nesting options and chronic dehydration. Such conditions also absolutely have a cumulative, negative effect on females, which eventually kills them. Pacing prior to egg layingis not normal and should be considered as a clear sign of stress. One can look for all of the "scientific evidence" (peer reviewed, published blah, blah blah) one wants, but at the end of the day it is the shared experiences of observant keepers that reveals what works and what doesn't. It is not a secret, and its not a mystery to be solved by an official scientific study. However, these issues should absolutely be discussed repeatedly because new keepers don't have the experience to know better. Thanks Gregg, for putting accurately and succinctly.

Will

Nobody said "peer reviewed, published blah blah blah"
No need to get confrontational.
I just said claims should be backed up.
You're entitled to your beliefs, but many of us don't agree with your claims.
And just responding by saying "new keepers don't know better" is an obnoxious substitute for intelligent dialogue.

Hognoses are not pythons and colubrids are very large group of extremely diverse snakes. It would be absurd to assume all colubrids have similar requirements - even if the "decades of python and colubrid breeding" backed up your claims.

"It is not a secret, and its not a mystery to be solved by an official scientific study" - again your silly phraseology ,misses the point.
Many breeders are experiencing issues with egg binding.
It is important to resolve this issue - if you think it's been solved, great! I, for one, don't think it has!!

See Jonny, these claims are backed up. Backed up by years of trial and error. Seeing what works and what does not work. Seeing what yields good results and what continues to yield poor results. This information is being compiled by people who have at least 20 plus years of keeping and breeding. Not only keeping and breeding but also actually taking the time to observe these animals and their behavior when certain changes are made. I do not want to just keep my snakes in a box and breed them. I want to keep my snakes in a box, breed them, AND understand them. If you keep by care sheet standards, you will never understand them. It is hard for people with an understanding of these things to come out here and talk about it because care sheet thumpers crap on it because it is not what some big breeder has in their care sheet.

While I do agree there other factors that can contribute to egg binding, poor nesting and dehydration are 2 of the main causes and by offering proper nesting, you can reduce the risk of egg binding significantly. One subject that not many touch on is the importance of calcium for muscular strength and how important it is for the egg deposition process. Most people think snakes get enough calcium from their prey. This may be very true but how are captive snakes kept in a rack producing the D3 in order to process and absorb its calcium intake. There is a reason why MANY hognose breeders say that their females are only really productive for the first 2 to 4 seasons. I know for a fact that is has nothing to do with the females capabilities. It has to do with improper husbandry and I am certain it can be attributed to reproductive organ damage as well.

I completely disagree on the dehydration.
I think it's an overstated concern.
I call it the "copy and paste" mentality.

For example:
Again and again, it is stated how important it is to give snakes water through brumation.
I, for one, do not give my snakes water through brumation.

I think it's a complete fallacy. Most snakes(at least the ones we raise in captivity) will comfortably handle periods of famine and drought - that's the way they are designed physiologically.

Actually they are designed physiologically to CONSERVE moisture, not to lose it or be without it. In a hot dry cage with no place to go that is cool and moist, snakes and other reptiles will dehydrate and suffer for it down the road if not right away. When these snakes bromate, they are not doing it in dry conditions like they get in captivity. Nothing you do in captivity really mimics what they do in the wild so why would you even want to come close to mimicking the worst conditions they can possibly go through? Makes no sense.

Thanks again Gregg. Dead nuts on (Buffalo saying for - you nailed it). Also calcium placement may also be a factor in egg binding when snakes aren't given access to high enough temps to place usable calcium from their prey. Most folks provide the high 80s, but they will use temps up to 110F for short periods of time. Thanks.

Will

We're going round in circles

I use "full nesting".
My numbers don't match the numbers that FR states nor yours.
I'm not seeing the things you refer to.
I'm happy with my results so far.
My girls are averaging a week after shed to lay.
Most are just curled up till the 24 hours they 'choose' to lay.
The only girl who had an egg stuck this year was the quickest to lay. The egg was not particularly large and had no visible veins.
Her clutch was very inconsistent in size unlike most of my girls.

I still believe there are other physiological factors affecting them.
I also think hogs are extremely varied psychologically, as we see in their varied feeding responses.
As I mentioned to you, I am done feeding my boas in 5 minutes because they nearly all behave the same.
Hognose have the most diverse personality of any reptile I've kept and I think it's overly simplistic to view the egg laying within that 10 day period of nesting.
I think the several months prior to egg laying all affect the big day more than we know.

PEACE BRO !!

As I said in a previous thread, maybe you are not seeing the numbers because you are not doing the method properly. Maybe you are using it on females who already have damaged reproductive organs due to previous seasons of retaining eggs too long. While they may have diverse "personalities" in your eyes, their basic instinctive behaviors and basic needs are generally the same across the board. However, I do agree there can be a quirky individual here and there but they are in the larger minority. Pacing is not normal behavior. Dumping eggs in dry areas of the cage or in water dishes is not normal behavior. Scattering eggs around and eating them is not normal behavior. Egg binding is not normal. All of these things are mostly due to our screw ups in husbandry. When something like that happens to me I never question the animals. I question what I may have done to cause it.

I don't think it's the minority.

As we all see when feeding hogs, I think it's the majority.

I think I've gotten to know the different personality types, mostly, but I think hogs can be divided into about 6 or 7 personality types -
unlike, most of my other snakes which will behave mostly the same, each according to type, aside from the "minority" you refer to.

I don't question the animals either - I don't know what you mean by that.
I just mean to say there are more questions and more answers.

My wife's gonna shoot me if I don't go shopping NOW - never incur a female's wrath.
I'm out the door guys

Of course individual snakes have different personalities. Much more then seven types. My definition, their personality is based on a difference between each individual. There is scientific reason for that. Its natures way to ensure that some individuals succeed when others don't. Its like what we do here. We are all keeping hogs, in our own individual way, yet its the same hognose snakes.
In a sense, individual personalities is a method to accomplish the exact same thing is a slightly different way.
Lets look at nesting, All hogs dig a burrow create a chamber, deposit eggs and hide the entrane. If conditions are a bit moist, they make a bigger air space, if conditions are a bit dry, they cover the eggs with soil. Type or make up of soil varies slightly from local to local, yet all have the same qualities. They must be oxygenated, draining, and stable in both temps and humidity. The next level of picking nests is based on success, females that reach maturity are successful, they tend to repeat nesting in the manner they hatched. After several generations, they there tends to be clusters of nests. The reason is simple, it worked, repeat it. In nature, if something does not work, its quickly erased. Gone.
Oddly, in my opinion, nesting areas are NOT about hatching eggs alone. Not at all. simply put, if eggs hatched and neonates did not survive, there was no value in placing eggs in that local. So nesting in snakes is more about neonate survival, as that is what leads to successful recruitment. So they attempt to place eggs with 1. the eggs hatch, and 2. more importantly there is a high percentage of neonate survival. So behaviorally, why they choose a nest is not based on eggs hatching alone, but includes more, it includes the ability for neonate survival. The place them where the neonates survive. That is what all those seven personalities want to accomplish. They attempt to achieve successful recruitment. And they want to do it in very much the same way.

Please think about this, We are offering you free of charge, a method, to help you and your snakes. We do not benefit from whether you use it or not. Period. What benefits is hopefully the snakes.
Its your choice whether to try it or not. I am not forcing you in any way.
What is of interest is, from these conversations, Both Gregg and I have stated, it took time to develop this method. In my case, it took years to understand this method. I indeed accidentally stumbled upon it.
I talk of recipe husbandry, what I should be talking about is recipe thinking. You and others seem to want to read something, in a small paragraph, do it and it automatically works.
You call me names, and say such things that I think I am smarter then others. Yet, as mentioned, it took me twenty years to develop this method to a point of broad success with many species. The point is, you want to apply it and have it work, in one attempt the first time and without asking important questions. To me, your the one being egotistical. You somehow think you can do what it took us years to learn and perfect, right off the bat. And do it, by reading a small paragraph. Sir, your would have to be a very intelligent and special person to do that.
In your attempt at full cage nesting, exactly what did you do, what materials, what temps, what humidity, what is the history of the animals, etc. all that and more is important to what type of results you will see. Yet, you do not ask, nor do you tell what you did. You argue. You really need to ask questions and share your experiences. Getting it right the first time, is rare and maybe lucky. To not ask or have conversation about the method, is any number of derogatory names. That its offered to you for free, is a gift. I nor Gregg have to share anything with you. You could, maybe should ask, why do I share and take such beatings from folks like you. That would be a great question.
pt1

You do understand, that in life and in science, its the quality of the questions that are important, not so much the answers. To learn, means we need to ask the right question. Answers come and go, the value and strength of the answer(results) depends on the question, or quality of the question. Or better yet, a sequence of questions. That's how we learn.
Again, you claim science, yet fail to ask questions. If you would go back, both Gregg and I, offered a RANGE of results and how to gauge if the nesting is good, by those results. Yet, your results are not equal to the higher levels of success, so you blame us/the method. Sir, we WORK with snakes, that is very accurate, it takes work. Which means its a constant application of time and energy on our part to get it right. To work at.
So please, if your interested, keep working, ask questions of both us and question the snakes. Keep trying until you get it right. Or not. What we offer you is free and your free to use it or not. But to attack a gift, is all about you.

The problem is that these issues have been largely resolved. It is the few folks that are trying to reinvent the wheel and distract from these critical factors that are holding husbandry back. While its great that you feel that there are others factors involved in egg binding, critical observation of thousands of colubrids and pythons has shown that the factors that matter are nesting and the chronic dehydration syndrome that plagues captive snakes due to the obsession with air flow. By the way, while you may feel that these afore mentioned general families shouldn't be compared, critical observation has shown that their general care requirements are quite similar, within a few degrees of temp actually, and nesting requirements are nearly identical, with all colubrids and pythons favoring dark chambers with light textured substrate with humid, but dry conditions.

Also, I'm not picking on new keepers because of their lack of experience, that is what makes them new. It's not condescending, it's fact. While reading is great, it does not equate to actual experience, which is painfully gained thru mistakes that unfortunately kill snakes. That is how we learned, the hard way. Your dismissal of these hard learned conclusions (not theories), implying that are other factors at play in egg binding, forces others to learn the hard way, when they could simply darken their cages, add more substrate and maybe a few boards or glass sheets to add years to their females lives, improve the vigor of their babies and hatch rates. I've been dealing with "wheel re-inventors" for decades. They usually claim to be disciples of the scientific method, yet in their zeal to make a name for themselves, they try to reinvent techniques and strategies that only kill more animals. End pt. 1

Will

Also, these claims have been backed up ad nauseum. You simply don't like their most vigorous messenger, Frank, because he doesn't validate you with each post. He's not in the hognose arse patting clique (nor am I) and it offends you. While I agree that hogs are special, remarkable, highly adapted critters, they are also simple colubrids and their basic husbandry has been established, for decades. You repeatedly speak of science, but the important, husbandry related science has also been established for a while now. You speak of theories, but these theories have been proven in snake rooms all over the world for many, many years. I personally don't care what you do, but I do care that folks read your words and believe that the jury is still out on the important stuff we are discussing. What Gregg said is absolutely true. Most folks just want to get a few clutches and don't care too much beyond that. Well they ought to care that these snakes can successfully reproduce for decades, but usually end up in the freezer, trash or compost pile by 5 or six years because these simple fixes are not known, or worse are dismissed because a "lack of evidence" by folks like yourself.

Will

Dang Will, and they think I am mean!!!!!!! As I mentioned, its not about husbandry, known or otherwise. Its human psychology. I am a nice guy and have faith in most of these people. I think if they learned that these animals are not place holders and have a life and have personalities and make choices, and Do stuff, it would really hurt their feelings and it would cause them to think of themselves in a bad lite. They would feel bad for keeping them is such minimal conditions that have nothing important to the animals. So they fight tooth and claw. They are simply protecting themselves. Normally the simplest reason is has the highest chance of being accurate. If it was about methods of husbandry, they would ignore what they did not want to use. I always say, if your happy doing what your doing, keep doing it. But they do not, they are relentless in their attacks and fight like there is no tomorrow. Which simply means, its personal to them. To use science as a defense is silly. Again simply put, if science says gophersnakes do not fly, and it was then discovered that some did fly, science would quickly rewrite that gophersnakes can under some circumstances fly. That is what science does, Its very scientific for science to change its methods of study to increase its body of knowledge, to stop and support methods, is bad science, in lieu of new information. To be scientific, is to welcome new information and test it. In debate, folks like Caracal are only using terms to debate, not achieve results.

Hi Frank,

I know, that was mean. I don't like being an a-hole. But when I think of all of the folks reading this board who might think, because Caracal writes well and says he's a scientist, that these concepts we are discussing are in fact just theories. When in reality, it took hundreds (or more) lives to come to these realities. I've killed snakes (and monitors) from shatty nesting. I have to own that and live with it. Now there are better methods so others don't have to go through the same losses. To hear other, better, proven ways dismissed as theories or hypotheses just boils my noodles (one of my 6th graders said that yesterday and it is still cracking me up).

Thanks Man.

Will

Can I use that too? my noodles feel boiled, we need rain. All we can do is keep plugging away. One thing I learned a long time ago. Once its said, those arguing cannot forget it. Its stuck with them and for a very look time. Best wishes