Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Eleven of them, born early august.

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

If those are the true locality ones, those are AWESOME!
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Genesis 1:1

Thank you, sir!

The thing is, it's not like I captured the parental couple myself. They're Kingsvilles because the guy said so. I suppose this goes for many of the "locality" snakes out there, if not most.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

The red tiger bulls were originally produced by KJ Lodrigue as well as the reddest bulls I've seen yet. They were not Kingsville locality, but I suspect that line may have had Kingsville influence. The original parents were very red Crumly bulls that I purchased years ago directly from Mr. Crumly himself. You can view parents and original red and tiger offspring by searching kj's snakehaven and the pituophis page.

Yeah, I know about the KJUN Tigers. In fact, for a while I thought of my line of Tigers as probably being the same thing.

As it turned out, they're not, one major difference being the (way above average) blotch count in KJUN's Tiger.

My Tiger is a real thing though, now proven as a single recessive inheritable trait. I elaborated on this already, in my previous topic.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Has Ginter ever produced tiger's from his Kingsville bulls?

So it's about the locality tag, then?

Actually, I don't know if John Ginter ever produced any Kingsville Bulls of the "Tiger" variant. If he did, he obviously didn't recognize them as "Tigers", or at least he didn't label them as such.

I do remember having seen some "Kingsville" Bulls produced by Jason Nelson, which seemed quite similar to my "Kingsvilles". Again, no "Tiger" label attached, but similar none the less.

But then again, it was me who exposed this new "Tiger" variant as a single recessive inheritable trait, remember?

So just because I choose to label these Bulls as "Tigers", doesn't mean they can't be "Kingsvilles".
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

You're right. It doesn't mean they aren't Kingsville. Doesn't mean they are Kingsvilles either. You bought them from a guy who bought them from a guy who called them Kingsville. Got it. You then pomposity claim you pretty much own the "tiger" lineage because, why? KJ started the tigers and super reds, not you. And unless you've spoken with him or his associates who kept this line going with regard to proving something out, you shouldn't be so quick to lay claim to anything. Do some research first. You are labeling snakes as pure based on what some guy told another guy who you bought them from. People have sold Crumly reds as locality because Kingsvilles were more sought after and commanded more money, rightfully so.

You said yourself that "for a while I thought my line of tigers as probably being the same thing (kjun tigers). Of course there's no way that could be true since the blotches counts didn't match up? Seriously? I had two locality specific bulls, one with a blotch count of 48 and the other 51 that produced a clutch of eleven offspring with none having a higher count than 44.

I just knew this was gonna happen. Thank God I didn't start a topic on LA Pines, LOL. So I'll respond to your remarks this one more time, and that's my final word on it. Ok with that?

"You're right. It doesn't mean they aren't Kingsville. Doesn't mean they are Kingsvilles either."

I know. I already said so, in my response to DISCERN.

"You bought them from a guy who bought them from a guy who called them Kingsville. Got it."

There you go.

"You are labeling snakes as pure based on what some guy told another guy who you bought them from. People have sold Crumly reds as locality because Kingsvilles were more sought after and commanded more money, rightfully so."

I know. But this problem goes for most, - if not all -, "locality" snakes out there, not just mine. It's an uncertainty you either deal with, or you just quit keeping snakes altogether. So is there anyone out there, just someone who actually has the documented proof to show for? Really? How?

Just to be clear on this, I'm not into this whole "Kingsville" thing because I'm some kind of locality purist. For me, the "Kingsville" label serves mostly as an indication for how a Bullsnake labeled as such is supposed to look. As long as those expectations are met, - and believe me, they are -, I'm a happy customer.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

"You then pomposity claim you pretty much own the "tiger" lineage because, why? KJ started the tigers and super reds, not you. And unless you've spoken with him or his associates who kept this line going with regard to proving something out, you shouldn't be so quick to lay claim to anything. Do some research first."

I never claimed owning THE (as in, the one and only) "Tiger" lineage. First the KJUN "Tiger" came along, and now there's another one (mine). It's proven (by me) as a single recessive inheritable trait. I really don't see how this can be so complicated, as I elaborated on this already, several times actually. So please, do some reading first.

"You said yourself that "for a while I thought my line of tigers as probably being the same thing (kjun tigers). Of course there's no way that could be true since the blotches counts didn't match up? Seriously? I had two locality specific bulls, one with a blotch count of 48 and the other 51 that produced a clutch of eleven offspring with none having a higher count than 44."

Also, my "Tiger" looks VERY different from KJUN's. Not quite so obvious in juveniles as in adults, though. Anyway, if there's issues with me using the "Tiger" tag, I'll answer to the KJUN guys, and no one else.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

I'm good with you being done with me. In any case, if I buy locality animals, I do my research and make sure that is what I am getting. If I wanted a Kingsville, I would get it Gunter or a reputable person like Jason. I definitely wouldn't buy from someone who got them from another Joe Schmo' and represent them as PURE Kingsville when you had possible doubts yourself. There are people who do take pride in keeping locality animals true. What's wrong with just calling them red or tiger? Condescending to "purists" all you want. Misrepresent all you want. It's here for people to see. Good luck with your crumbly, er kingsville project.

How fortunate we are, to have you step forward and decide for all of us.

But why stop there?

Just because they look red, doesn't mean they are.

So, what's wrong with just calling them "Bullsnakes" instead?

Assuming there's verifiable proof they're not hybrids...
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"Never wrestle a pig"

I reread this whole thread and obviously keep overlooking the post where I decided anything for anybody. Could you please point out the exact quote for me? Thanks in advance!

No
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"Never wrestle a pig"

First of all congrats to you Herman, you deserve all credits on those nice bullsnakes.
I did not post here since longtime for a good reason.
I'm getting tired of the jalous reactions of 90% of the Yankees on this and other forums.
Always the same [bleep], if you are not a US citizen you don't have the right to give a name to something you worked for since years.
After Al Stotton you are the next one who don't get respect.
Giving names is only allowed if you have US nationality.
Let me tell you that I sometimes have questions and doubts when I see new things "created" by US Pituophis heroes.
To give you an example, an albino red bullsnake resembles too much an albino Applegate annectens.
Could this be a hybrid or are we Europeans not allowed to talk like that about snakes "created" by US masters?
I'm somehow done with the US Pituophis community.
Jonel Lopez, is someone who I respect.
No big head, but a quiet guy who breeds high quality bullsnakes.

Thank you, John. Means a lot.

Also, I'm quite not finished yet, LOL.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Just to point out how false these allegations really are, here's a shot of a KJUN Tiger (as posted earlier by Jeremy Pierce), and one of my own Tigers. You'll actually have to be blind to not see the difference.

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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

These threads have pointed out EXACTLY why I don't come here much anymore.

I just wanted to be clear...the animal that I shared in another thread (and is shown in the post prior to this one) is an animal that I produced in 2013. It is not from KJUN's website. The male that produced it was from KJ and did NOT have the tiger/crazy high saddle count (though it does have an odd pattern). I do know that KJ's line produced these on occasion and he was working towards stabilizing it (though I don't think he did before he got out of herps).

I do feel for the U.K. fellows thinking that they're being shunned in any way shape or form. I promise you, I'm not biased in any way. To be honest, I didn't know that either of you weren't "yanks".

I try to be respectful to all. This place isn't what it used to be for sure. Last I'll be back for a while. I'm not into smack talk.

That clutch of tigers that you posted on the original post IS AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would count myself lucky to own one of those. Nice job.

Thanx for all the positive feedback, my friend.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

I gotta agree with John. Congrats Herman you got some awesome lookin animals. I can't stand it when ppl get on these forums to trash what others doin. We all in this cuz we love these animals we should be happy for what the next guy is doing. We are in danger of losing our right to keep these awesome animals so we should be fighting the politicians and people who hate us n what we do not each other! I've been a pituophis fan for a long time but I just started raising bulls and pines hoping to breed the last couple yrs.
Ppl like Jason and Jonel and several others are a inspiration to me. If u ain't a fan of someone's work that's fine just go somewhere else but don't trash their hard work just. There's absolutely nothing wrong with making your own line of something at all. Herman I appreciate what ur doin they really are nice animals!

Thank you, Brandon. Much appreciated.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Hear, hear!
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"Never wrestle a pig"

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