Hi Gregg,

I see it as two different outlooks as to what defines success.
It is my personal view (and the view of many others) that a reptile's goal in life is to reproduce and contribute to the next generation of their given population. I do not believe that their instinctual drive changes in captivity. Using that logic, I absolutely believe that it more important to support animals to the level where they are allowed to reproduce than, living a long, static life alone in a box. If they die after a couple of clutches that only alerts the keeper to the realization that their husbandry sucks. I have been keeping herps for more than 30 years and I have seen, and continue to see daily, that they benefit from contact with others of their own species. If you haven't seen evidence of that, perhaps you should ask yourself why not, instead of preaching those antiquated "solitary existance" theories to keepers here, who may not have the experience to know better. You asked a somewhat rhetorical question in an earlier post as to whether seeing 20 garters under a board makes them social, well, yeah it does; so does seeing a large group of spotted turtles foraging together year after year; so does seeing captive kingsnakes and monitors tending to gravid females. I know that these behaviors may not fit Webster's definition of social, but then again, I am not so arrogant as to assume that because a human decided what the definition of social should be, that is the last word on the subject.

An animal's behaviors do not change once they are captives. Their behaviors are based on their genetic potential that has been fine-tuned via natural selection over the millenia. To think that humans can supercede natural selection and change inherited behavior because we put them in a box is incredibly arrogant. To claim that behaviors do not exist because you are not seeing them is incredibly arrogant. I have bitten my tongue throughout this thread because I don't know you, but what you are claiming is just not what many of us have seen, and continue to see. You can do what you want, and luckily for you, the animals that you keep will likely continue to reproduce for you in the manner in which you keep them. However, that does not mean that if you stepped outside the box so to speak you wouldn't witness other behaviors. Observant keepers would and do see these things every day, yet that often goes unreported because they are tired of dealing with the nay-saying, antiquated book-quoters on this and other forums.

So, while I repect your accomplishments with gaboons, rhinos, bush vipers and hogs, I do not appreciate your blanket statements regarding behaviors that you have not seen. The behaviors myself and other have witnessed go well beyond the boundaries of animals "tolerating" one another, and while they may not be social by definition, they are social in the reality of the natural world. Thanks.

Will

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